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Old July 20 2013, 11:27 PM   #226
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

I understand what Jonathan wanted of Clark. I just think he did a pretty lousy job of it. He paid lip service to wanting Clark to make a difference, but he did nothing to set an example showing how he could do that. So it was just empty words. He didn't help his son figure these things out, he just made him afraid and convinced him it would be harder than it actually turned out to be.
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Old July 20 2013, 11:35 PM   #227
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Jonathan didn't have the answers. Hologram Dad did. Just like the Donner film, but I'd say Jonathan had a more substantial role here.

And ultimately, though they didn't connect the dots for us, I imagine that Jonathan's influence is what causes Clark to continue to protect his secret by establishing a dual identity...a classic element of the mythos. At least that wasn't Jor-El's idea in this version.
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Old July 20 2013, 11:47 PM   #228
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Jonathan was not perfect (like most dads, including mine and including myself). We don't always practice what we preach, we often give advice without being able to live up to it, we often have conflicting impulses about encouraging our children to make a difference and keeping them safe. I found Jonathan more like a real person than such "father figures" are usually portrayed in fiction.
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Old July 21 2013, 02:40 PM   #229
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Although I'm enjoying this discussion, I think it's amusing that a thread about the hate for Superman Returns has ended up focussing on many people's criticisms of Man of Steel!
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Old July 21 2013, 03:31 PM   #230
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
Although I'm enjoying this discussion, I think it's amusing that a thread about the hate for Superman Returns has ended up focussing on many people's criticisms of Man of Steel!
True, but given the timing, it was kind of inevitable. MoS is much more recent and prominent in people's thoughts.

So, is anyone unclear on why people hate Superman IV: The Quest for Peace? Anyone? No? Moving on...
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Old July 21 2013, 04:19 PM   #231
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Wait. There was a Superman IV?
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Old July 21 2013, 04:24 PM   #232
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

It says right here* that it was some fanfic that took a bolt of lightning or some radioactive contamination and mutated into a hideous Frankenstein monster of cinematic proportions.

"right here" meaning: only in this post.
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Old July 21 2013, 04:37 PM   #233
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Christopher wrote: View Post
So, is anyone unclear on why people hate Superman IV: The Quest for Peace? Anyone? No? Moving on...
People hate Superman IV? You're joking me!
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Old July 21 2013, 05:30 PM   #234
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

I like the part where Superman walks in the UN and everyone stands up to sponsor him...not worth ever rewatching the film for, though....

As long as we're on (off?) the subject, maybe somebody could help me with something regarding that movie. According to all reputable online sources, the official release date was Friday, July 24, 1987...but I have strong reasons, related to personal events in my life the week that I saw the film, to think that I saw it on Friday, July 17, 1987. Is there any evidence that it opened earlier in some US theaters than what's now recorded as the official release date?
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Old July 21 2013, 07:27 PM   #235
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Ovation wrote: View Post
Jonathan was not perfect (like most dads, including mine and including myself). We don't always practice what we preach, we often give advice without being able to live up to it, we often have conflicting impulses about encouraging our children to make a difference and keeping them safe. I found Jonathan more like a real person than such "father figures" are usually portrayed in fiction.
Agreed. Regardless of what the Superman legend "requires" of the character, I thought this Jonathan came across the most realistic and believable of any so far-- which I think ultimately is the most important thing.

The fact he took in this alien child and loved him dearly, and then did everything he could to protect him, means a lot more, I think, than whether he did enough to teach Clark how to be a "hero."
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Old July 21 2013, 07:52 PM   #236
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

davejames wrote: View Post
Agreed. Regardless of what the Superman legend "requires" of the character, I thought this Jonathan came across the most realistic and believable of any so far-- which I think ultimately is the most important thing.
But is that kind of a cynical take on realism, that the only realistic father figure is one who's lost and confused and gives terrible advice, what we really want from Superman of all things? Doesn't that character call for something more idealistic?


The fact he took in this alien child and loved him dearly, and then did everything he could to protect him, means a lot more, I think, than whether he did enough to teach Clark how to be a "hero."
As I said, that's completely missing my point. I never, ever said that Jonathan was self-consciously training Clark to be a "hero," quote-unquote. What I said was that he was an intrinsically good man who helped others without worrying about himself, and that Clark learned from his example. It was Jonathan and Martha just being themselves, just embodying the natural, wholesome values and selflessness that they would've shown anyway, that taught Clark what it meant to be a force for good.

By contrast, this Jonathan meant well, yes, and was trying to protect his son, but in a very fearful and cynical way that showed no regard for others. He raised his son with a siege mentality, and Clark couldn't become Superman until he finally accepted that his father had been wrong all those years, that people could accept him because humanity isn't as awful as Jonathan assumed. Most versions of Superman have great faith in human goodness because the Kents had great faith in human goodness and instilled that in their son. This Superman's faith in human goodness comes despite everything Jonathan taught him about what a bunch of incurably xenophobic savages we were. His idealism came more from Jor-El than from Jonathan.
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Old July 21 2013, 08:12 PM   #237
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

^But one could argue that Jonathan's deeds did instill in his son the desire to help people, hence the fact that Clark went on to wander around helping people with his powers under a series of aliases for years after his father's death. Jonathan did die trying to save a dog, after all.

I'll be the first to admit that the execution of this idea was very spotty, but I think that's what the filmmakers were trying to get across.
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Old July 21 2013, 08:37 PM   #238
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Christopher wrote: View Post
But Jonathan believed (wrongly) that they were safe under the overpass. That's why the misguided fool gave them that horribly wrong advice in the first place.
I don't know that I believe this is a legit criticism of Jonathan-- it's obvious that within the narrative of the film, the overpass is supposed to be safe place to go. Unless we believe that not just Jonathan, but all the inhabitants of Kansas know nothing of tornado safety. This might be factually wrong, but that's a critique of the filmwriters' research, not Jonathan Kent.
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Old July 21 2013, 08:41 PM   #239
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Jonathon did more than just save a dog, he saved a baby then went back for the dog. Adn I'm sure that a lifetime with the Kents gave him whatever ideals Clark has, I didn't see Jor-El instilling in Clark any ideals.
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Old July 21 2013, 09:19 PM   #240
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Steve Mollmann wrote: View Post
I don't know that I believe this is a legit criticism of Jonathan-- it's obvious that within the narrative of the film, the overpass is supposed to be safe place to go. Unless we believe that not just Jonathan, but all the inhabitants of Kansas know nothing of tornado safety. This might be factually wrong, but that's a critique of the filmwriters' research, not Jonathan Kent.
Which was exactly my intent. I think the filmmakers did a horribly irresponsible thing here and might get somebody killed by presenting that as a good idea. But I'm mad at them for that and I'm mad at them for creating the most contemptible Jonathan Kent ever. When I critique Jonathan, I'm not critiquing him, because he's just a construct of the filmmakers. I'm critiquing the decisions that went into portraying him that way. So in both cases, yes, it's the filmmakers I'm critiquing. I hate their portrayal of Jonathan and I hate their irresponsibility in failing to do basic research into tornado safety. Those two things just happen to converge in that particular scene.

This isn't like me. I usually try not to be the kind of fan who rants angrily about creative decisions I don't agree with, or who makes my criticisms into personal attacks against the filmmakers. In fact, I'm usually a very forgiving moviegoer while I'm actually in the theater, letting myself get immersed in the experience and not prone to dwell on the negatives until afterward. MoS is one of the few films I can remember seeing in the theater that made me angry and frustrated while I was watching it, that made me bitter toward the filmmakers for the choices they made.
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