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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old July 19 2013, 11:54 PM   #31
Kevman7987
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

^ Remember, Robocop had a model of Vengeance sitting out on his desk for all to see. What did he do when other officers or officials asked about it? I'm surprised there weren't rumors all through the fleet about it. Unless Enterprise was the only ship that never got any of the gossip?..
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Old July 20 2013, 03:15 AM   #32
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Mage wrote: View Post
[...] Marcus wasn't acting under Starfleet's orders.
Well, he was the head of Starfleet, so who exactly in Starfleet would have been giving him orders anyways?
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Old July 20 2013, 08:48 AM   #33
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

PsychoPere wrote: View Post
Mage wrote: View Post
[...] Marcus wasn't acting under Starfleet's orders.
Well, he was the head of Starfleet, so who exactly in Starfleet would have been giving him orders anyways?
Yeah, but as the head of a military you don't simply dictate how that military works. A military serves under the ruler(s) of a nation. So even as head of Starfleet, he wasn't the Supreme Ruler of the UFP or something like that, and couldn't dictate policy.
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Old July 20 2013, 08:54 AM   #34
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
^ Remember, Robocop had a model of Vengeance sitting out on his desk for all to see. What did he do when other officers or officials asked about it? I'm surprised there weren't rumors all through the fleet about it. Unless Enterprise was the only ship that never got any of the gossip?..
Entirely possible that the Vengeance's design wasn't secret, just sold as being something other that what Marcus ended up making.
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Old July 20 2013, 03:11 PM   #35
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

One of the problems here is that, when the ship pops up for the first time, our heroes indicate they do not recognize it - meaning they don't recognize its shape. That makes it a bit less likely that the design would be in common use, with the Vengeance reflecting either standard production or a special modification. Or then it makes our bunch of heroes ignorant.

Which is perfectly excusable if they have indeed been out in deep space for a few years. But if that were true, why would a five-year sortie be such a big deal for Kirk? They can't have been gone for as long as it takes to produce a ship like that out in the open (we get an idea of the timescale from the previous movie showing us the NCC-1701 construction timeline in some detail).

Perhaps the heroes aren't ignorant at all, and actually do recognize the shape, and Kirk merely swiftly asks Khan for additional, in-depth information he knows Khan possesses...

Whether Marcus would have control over ship procurement policy, it's difficult to tell; in some militaries of the past, a man like him would have had that exact control, but in modern ones it would be uncommon. But the clearance to launch assassination missions and destroy fellow starships as situation warrants could be well within his grasp, as many modern militaries would provide that sort of leeway in a comparable high-tension situation.

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Old July 21 2013, 01:46 AM   #36
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

The Vengeance was likely first named USS Excelsior, it had transwarp drive after all.
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Old July 21 2013, 07:56 AM   #37
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Killerprise wrote: View Post
The Vengeance was likely first named USS Excelsior, it had transwarp drive after all.
When were the words transwarp ever uttered during the movie? Just because it was faster then Enterprise, doesn't automatically mean it has transwarp.
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Old July 24 2013, 11:30 PM   #38
Set Harth
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Mage wrote: View Post
When were the words transwarp ever uttered during the movie?
When Scotty showed up with Cumberbatch's portable transwarp beaming device. But "transwarp drive" was never uttered as far as I know.
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Old July 25 2013, 12:32 AM   #39
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Carol tells Kirk in a hurry that Vengeance has "an advanced warp drive" which I think some people misheard as a Britishy "a trans-warp drive"
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Old July 25 2013, 03:29 AM   #40
saddestmoon
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
^ Remember, Robocop had a model of Vengeance sitting out on his desk for all to see. What did he do when other officers or officials asked about it? I'm surprised there weren't rumors all through the fleet about it. Unless Enterprise was the only ship that never got any of the gossip?..
Entirely possible that the Vengeance's design wasn't secret, just sold as being something other that what Marcus ended up making.
I agree.

Also - I thought that maybe that lineup on the desk represents key starship design evolution - and that perhaps the Vengeance was there as a symbolic nod to the future of starfleets direction (ie: a model of the next generation of Starfleets ships) - not necesarily of what was understood to be current designs (after all, starship creation could take a long time from conception to fruition - and perhaps the Vengeance was being advanced at a much faster rate than was anticipated by the general public...)

I liken it to a display of car models on a desk, all being significant milestones in the motoring history, with a model of some kind of futuristic car design (not yet made) but at least designed on paper.
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Old July 25 2013, 03:34 AM   #41
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Killerprise wrote: View Post
The Vengeance was likely first named USS Excelsior, it had transwarp drive after all.
Different timeline, so highly unlikely in both counts, IMHO. If that were indeed the case, I'd expect it would have be called the USS Excelsior, rather than the USS Vengeance - and transwarp would have been gone into in greater detail (and would have actually been mentioned, in-movie).

But neither were referenced in STID.

If ever there was an Excelsior in the Into Darkness timeline, I think this may have been it... (speculation of course, and possible spoilers):

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=213985
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Old July 26 2013, 02:56 PM   #42
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Has anyone been able to figure out why Marcus needed Khan to tell him how to build a more advanced ship. I don't see how Khan could have learned enough about 23rd century technology to build the Vengeance and do it all in one year. What makes more sense to me is that when Nero's drill fell into the sea, it had a crew on board like when he attacked Vulcan, and that Starfleet captured them and used their knowledge to build the Vengeance. After all, they probably would have been engineers.
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Old July 26 2013, 04:32 PM   #43
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

captainkirk wrote: View Post
Has anyone been able to figure out why Marcus needed Khan to tell him how to build a more advanced ship. I don't see how Khan could have learned enough about 23rd century technology to build the Vengeance and do it all in one year. What makes more sense to me is that when Nero's drill fell into the sea, it had a crew on board like when he attacked Vulcan, and that Starfleet captured them and used their knowledge to build the Vengeance. After all, they probably would have been engineers.
I had just assumed that Marcus used Khan's knowledge and understanding of warfare itself somehow to make the ship more dangerous.

Actually, your idea about survivors of Nero's crew being used to upgrade the ship's technology makes so much more sense than the confusing mess that Orci/Kurtzman came up with when writing Khan for STiD.
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Old July 26 2013, 05:02 PM   #44
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

Thanks. There were also the missiles that Nero fired at Spock just before they went to warp and those missiles weren't detonated so they could have been captured and reverse-engineered.
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Old July 26 2013, 05:23 PM   #45
Timo
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Re: Dreadnought-Class Production Line (Spoilers?)

I'm not convinced a couple of random miners, engineer or not, would have been a cornucopia of technological data. But it's also doubtful there ever were any people staying aboard the drill - it's way too small to actually hold any!

A perhaps more likely scenario would involve Nero noticing the saboteurs and beaming down a couple of expendable musclemen who'd then immediately emerge from that hatch. The drilling prevents "broadcast" beaming, but Nero would have been using "cable"...

As regards Khan's role, let's remember that it is Khan himself revealing that role. The egomaniac might have seriously believed he was the only arrow in Admiral Marcus' quiver, or at least would have tried to pass that impression to Kirk, but in reality Marcus probably was working on a much broader front (and barely remembered Khan until the London attack). Khan may have offered input on how to build the dreadnought-class vessels, but a dozen other evil supergeniuses may have been employed as well, not to mention other shady assets.

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