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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old July 20 2013, 05:00 PM   #46
Therin of Andor
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

Grant wrote: View Post
I know nothing of the 'blackface' stunt other than stuff i have read here in this forum.
I don't recall where I first heard of the incident where a white stuntman was put into "blackface" makeup to double for Terrell, but my friends and I certainly shocked Paul Winfield (in Australia, long before the theatrical release of ST II) by knowing about it. He was stunned that the rumour had made it all the way Down Under, and he confirmed that it was true.

Supposedly, the idea of Terrell tumbling was unscripted/impromptu, which I guess is why no African American stunt man was put onto the day's callsheet. It could be that no footage was actually shot. The incident threatened to cause a kerfuffle at the then-Stunt Actors Union.
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Old July 20 2013, 06:07 PM   #47
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

CaptainBearclaw wrote: View Post
There were a few takes of the final shot, including one where Spock made a quite humorous joke, but undermined the tone.

And undoubtedly more to follow.

I browsed through this thread and I am not sure if I missed it but according to Nimoy he suggested a line in TMP where after McCoy says he will stay, Spock says

"If Dr. McCoy is to remain on board, my presence here will be essential" (I am Spock- pg 172)

I have not forgiven them for not including this perfect line. I don't care about the serious tone of the movie. It actually feels like the characters.

On another note I am super disappointed that the Sulu/ancestor scene didn't work out in TVH as it does sound really adorable.
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Old July 20 2013, 06:49 PM   #48
Grant
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Grant wrote: View Post
I know nothing of the 'blackface' stunt other than stuff i have read here in this forum.
I don't recall where I first heard of the incident where a white stuntman was put into "blackface" makeup to double for Terrell, but my friends and I certainly shocked Paul Winfield (in Australia, long before the theatrical release of ST II) by knowing about it. He was stunned that the rumour had made it all the way Down Under, and he confirmed that it was true.

Supposedly, the idea of Terrell tumbling was unscripted/impromptu, which I guess is why no African American stunt man was put onto the day's callsheet. It could be that no footage was actually shot. The incident threatened to cause a kerfuffle at the then-Stunt Actors Union.
Well fortunately they shot the scripted version so it can be seen if we ever get a deleted section. Good decision on their part to shoot the version in the script BEFORE ad-libbing other stuff.
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Old July 20 2013, 09:30 PM   #49
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

This whole blackface stuntman thing always sounded suspicious to me, given no such action is called for in the script, though I suppose it's possible.

The test footage of Klingon cruisers blowing up for TMP is clearly test footage because the ships don't appear to match the hero model Magicam was building.

As to the 1.33:1 aspect ratio vs widescreen, I'm sure they shot it in the latter because it would give them more latitude in how to use the footage in post production.
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Old July 20 2013, 10:20 PM   #50
Grant
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

Maurice wrote: View Post
This whole blackface stuntman thing always sounded suspicious to me, given no such action is called for in the script, though I suppose it's possible.
I agree with you, but you never should have said that!
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Old July 20 2013, 11:40 PM   #51
Therin of Andor
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

Maurice wrote: View Post
This whole blackface stuntman thing always sounded suspicious to me, given no such action is called for in the script, though I suppose it's possible.
Well, I might not have believed it myself, except for Paul Winfield's reaction when we asked him. He had no need to elaborate on such a rumour. We didn't get the impression he was toying with us.

Certainly, I've seen "making of..." clips from other movies and TV shows over the decades, in which a slightly-built male stunt person has been dressed up in a female character's wig and dress to get a dangerous stunt performed for the cameras.

In these more enlightened times, the same furore would erupt if a female stunt person wasn't requested on callsheets.
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Old July 21 2013, 12:28 AM   #52
Grant
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
This whole blackface stuntman thing always sounded suspicious to me, given no such action is called for in the script, though I suppose it's possible.
Well, I might not have believed it myself, except for Paul Winfield's reaction when we asked him. He had no need to elaborate on such a rumour. We didn't get the impression he was toying with us.

Certainly, I've seen "making of..." clips from other movies and TV shows over the decades, in which a slightly-built male stunt person has been dressed up in a female character's wig and dress to get a dangerous stunt performed for the cameras.

In these more enlightened times, the same furore would erupt if a female stunt person wasn't requested on callsheets.

So there's the proof.
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Old July 21 2013, 02:04 AM   #53
trevanian
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

Maurice wrote: View Post
This whole blackface stuntman thing always sounded suspicious to me, given no such action is called for in the script, though I suppose it's possible.

The test footage of Klingon cruisers blowing up for TMP is clearly test footage because the ships don't appear to match the hero model Magicam was building.

As to the 1.33:1 aspect ratio vs widescreen, I'm sure they shot it in the latter because it would give them more latitude in how to use the footage in post production.
Pretty sure the Abel pyro tests were all shot in 16mm, so there was no way they were anything but tests (it was very pricey to get highspeed 35mm cameras that could work for FX, so you'd test and work out the right speed to shoot pyro at before booking the super-expensive camera for a day.) Alternately you could test in regular 35mm and then shoot in VistaVision, I guess..

I thought the foam klingon pyro models were cast from the magicam model, but this was the magicam model before it underwent one or two huge overhauls. Remember, Probert mentioned pointing out the neck was misaligned on the Magicam model during his first visist there (right before he became persona non grata there.) So Magicam eventually corrected that, and then Apogee did a ton of extra detailing and changing out of lights after Abel was ousted.

The blackface stuff was reported in VARIETY and/or THE HOLLYWOOD REPORTER; my best friend subscribed to both and I remember him showing me the story after telling me about it. I keep thinking that was discussed a bit here several years back ...

I flashed back on the fact this was a huge issue on LIVE & LET DIE, with white stuntmen blacking up on several occasions, that led to Yaphet Kotto being perceived as a real ass on-set because he kept flashing black power salutes in support of the discriminated against black stuntmen. I think this is all documented in Roger Moore's diary of the making of the film, but I haven't read that in decades ... all I really remember is how he got to talk with Jim Garrison about the JFK assassination and that was the first time I ever heard of Garrison. Moore seemed pretty convinced even back then.
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Old July 22 2013, 08:39 PM   #54
CaptainBearclaw
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

Ok, preliminary TUC list.

The briefing was originally about a third longer.
A further scene of the Enterprise leaving dock and Kirk jabbing Valeris for questioning his orders (again.)
Valeris was even more opposed to the mission originally. In the scene of her eavesdropping on Kirk she got a lot more of Kirk's feelings out of him.
The klingons are given a tour of the ship, where the Enterprise's equipment for gaseous study is shown.
The dinner scene was much longer and offered more lines to Uhura, Chekov, and Scotty. It eventually broke into argument.
The trial scene was originally much longer, with whole questionings cut out. McCoy would've given a classic delivery of the line "We were framed!".
Valeris questions whether or not McCoy and Kirk actually had something to do with the assassination.
Soem lines were cut about Sulu's choice to assist the Enterprise.
Martia mentions she was a smuggler and how her shape-shifting accomodated that.
A short discussion of the Bird of Prey was cut.
An alternate shot of Martia's vaporization which caused controversy, as many fans saw it in the trailer and thought Kirk was to die in the film. (More on THAT in the next list.)

Last edited by CaptainBearclaw; July 22 2013 at 11:36 PM.
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Old July 22 2013, 11:29 PM   #55
Grant
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

CaptainBearclaw wrote: View Post
Ok, preliminary TUC list.

The briefing was originally about a third longer.
A further scene of the Enterprise leaving dock and Kirk jabbing Valeris for questioning his orders (again.)
The klingons are given a tour of the ship, where the Enterprise's equipment for gaseous study is shown.
The dinner scene was much longer and offered more lines to Uhura, Chekov, and Scotty. It eventually broke into argument.
The trial scene was originally much longer, with whole questionings cut out. McCoy would've given a classic delivery of the line "We were framed!"
Martia mentions she was a smuggler and how her shape-shifting accomodated that.
An alternate shot of Martia's vaporization which caused controversy, as many fans saw it in the trailer and thought Kirk was to die in the film. (More on THAT in the next list.)

What's really interesting is the fact that as first filmed--it was even MORE clear Valeris didn't approve of the mission.

In the 'eavesdroping' scene she blantantly feels Kirk out about his feelings on a peace mission. After the trial she openly asks whether it's possible Kirk and McCoy DID have something to do with the assassination.
Those lines lines were wisely cut or looped.

There was also a few lines when Sulu signals Ent that he is standing by to assist Ent. First his 'com officer' (before Whitney was hired for the part)advises him that he is committing treason by offering help to Ent in conspiring to go against orders by perhaps mounting a rescue. Then after Uhura recieves his message Spock acknowledges that Sulu is putting himself in a bad position.
Once Whitney was hired as the com officer it made no sense that she'd side with starfleet against Kirk and McCoy who she had served with.
Scotty after the discussion of a BOP that can fire when cloaked says "You're talking about a dangerous new engine of destruction!" Spock replies, "yes I am.

Lines like that here and there that will never make a deleted scenes section even if we ever got one.
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Old July 23 2013, 06:15 AM   #56
Maurice
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

trevanian wrote: View Post
I thought the foam klingon pyro models were cast from the magicam model, but this was the magicam model before it underwent one or two huge overhauls. Remember, Probert mentioned pointing out the neck was misaligned on the Magicam model during his first visist there (right before he became persona non grata there.) So Magicam eventually corrected that, and then Apogee did a ton of extra detailing and changing out of lights after Abel was ousted.
No. I think they were cast from the original model that the production had borrowed back from the Smithsonian. In the featurette which shows this pyro you can see they are much smaller than the hero model, and have the exactly physical details of the TV ship.

Here's the video...

The blackface stuff was reported in VARIETY and/or THE HOLLYWOOD REPORTER; my best friend subscribed to both and I remember him showing me the story after telling me about it. I keep thinking that was discussed a bit here several years back ...
Oh yeah...now I remember you mentioned that. I tried searching one of their websites' archives, but no luck.
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Old July 23 2013, 03:31 PM   #57
CaptainBearclaw
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

Maurice, I would change it but I cannot edit that post anymore so it's kinda stuck there for now. Besides, one of the original scripts called for the ships to explode, so I counted it.
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Old July 23 2013, 05:09 PM   #58
trevanian
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

CaptainBearclaw wrote: View Post
Maurice, I would change it but I cannot edit that post anymore so it's kinda stuck there for now. Besides, one of the original scripts called for the ships to explode, so I counted it.
There's storyboard art for same as well; I think it ran in FUTURE magazine, and probably got repurposed in the POCKET 'art of.'
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Old July 25 2013, 04:54 AM   #59
Maurice
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

CaptainBearclaw wrote: View Post
Maurice, I would change it but I cannot edit that post anymore so it's kinda stuck there for now. Besides, one of the original scripts called for the ships to explode, so I counted it.
I was never disagreeing that it was intended at one point, just that it's not actual scrapped footage, but, rather, tests.
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Old July 25 2013, 08:21 PM   #60
CaptainBearclaw
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

GEN.
The credits were originally intercut with a scene of Kirk performing orbital skydiving and Scotty and Chekov watching him.
A scene of Harriman discussing learning about Kirk in grade-school.
There were a few changes made to the dialogue, changing Kirk from being a thrill-seeker to restless.
The whole rescue scene was cut down, removing several dialogue exchanges.
A whole scene of Chekov and Scotty discussing Kirk's apparent death.
The scene of Worf's promotion was cut down, and many takes were substituted for different versions.
Data originally went through many different emotions in his freakout scene.
The scene of Worf and Riker discussing the Duras sisters and Crusher working on Data was substantially cut down and changed, with many lines redubbed and whole exchanges cut down.
A scene of Geordi's torture was almost completely cut out.
Picard and Soran's fight was substantially cut down.
Picard's nexus was cut down and re-shot for the final version.
The entire climax was reshot. Kirk originally was incapacitated, snuck up on Soran, knocked him out, and stole his remote. Soran then shot him in the back. Picard later did the same to Soran.
A few scenes from the ending were cut out.
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