RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,091
Posts: 5,399,242
Members: 24,735
Currently online: 445
Newest member: extremedalek

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Retro Watches
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

New DS9 eBook To Debut
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

Trek Ice Cube Maker and Shot Glasses
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

City on the Edge of Forever #3 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

TV Alert: Shatner TNG Documentary
By: T'Bonz on Aug 25

Forbes Cast In Powers
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 20 2013, 08:55 AM   #376
CommishSleer
Fleet Captain
 
CommishSleer's Avatar
 
Location: At the After Party Still...
View CommishSleer's Twitter Profile
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Exploration has often been the job of the military.

And mostly not for purely altruistic reasons.

Captain Cook's voyage of discovery was supposedly to investigate the transit of Venus and lo and behold they went on to discover a few countries to put in the British Empire. To keep it from the French???
CommishSleer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 20 2013, 10:37 AM   #377
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
And yet, about the only thing that has ever been consistent in every Star Trek series is that every starship, no matter what its current assignment, will default to exploration as soon as all their government-mandated chores are done.
You might be right, but then when exploring, it's expected that you'll meet other ships that are also exploring, so it's hard to extrapolate from the few ships we've seen on the show prior to DS9.
__________________
And that's my opinion.

The Onmyouza Theatre: an unofficial international fanclub dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 20 2013, 06:56 PM   #378
Darkwing
Commodore
 
Location: This dry land thing is too wierd!
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Eddie, remember Trek was based on the age of sail. Navy ships not in well charted waters explored whenever they weren't actually involved in other missions because there was so much unknown about the world. So that argument doesn't preclude them being a miltary. And, just because the Macarthur was a military exploration mission does not mean Starfleet has to follow Niven and Pournelle's lead on how it would operate. Different writers, different universes. Sparta grew it's empire out of the wreckage of the corrupt Co-Dominium, which stamped it's attitudes and development differently.
This whole resistance to Starfleet being a military was an inane grafting in TNG, and I believe it grew out of hippie protests in the 70's calling soldiers babykillers. Roddenberry should have made the point that Starfleet was a better military than today's, instead of repudiating his own service and making ridiculous assertions that fly in the face of logic. And sadly, many who grew up on TNG instead of TOS have bought the idea.
__________________
If you don’t drink the kool-aid, you’re a baaad person - Rev Jim Jones
Almond kool-aid, anyone? Or do you prefer pudding?- Darkwing
Darkwing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 20 2013, 07:25 PM   #379
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
The Stig wrote: View Post
"These are the voyages of the Starship Enterprise. Her mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations. To boldly go where no one has gone before."

Sounds to me like the primary mission of the Enterprise and by extension, Starfleet, is one of galactic exploration. Scotty's complaint, and it was a proper one, was that the Enterprise was being dispatched on a covert mission of aggression.
Isn't that quite a leap though? Because they send one ship on a mission of exploration, it is the primary mission of the whole organization?

We honestly don't know what the mission of those other Constitution-class vessels were. Plus, how many of those missions of the Enterprise were pure exploration with no other concerns? We see them go on offensive missions, defensive missions, missions of pure espionage, missions of support for Earth/Federation colonies, diplomatic courier and emergency courier.
And yet, about the only thing that has ever been consistent in every Star Trek series is that every starship, no matter what its current assignment, will default to exploration as soon as all their government-mandated chores are done. Probably the most blatant example of this is in "Caretaker", where Janeway quotes a broad "directive" to "seek out new worlds and explore space," this despite the fact that they originally got into this predicament in the first place during a convoluted counter-terrorism assignment.

Basically, exploration is their DEFAULT assignment. Combat, patrol and police missions are relegated to a strictly "as needed" basis.
Except that, without actually sitting down and doing the math, "as needed" seems to be a large chunk of the time. Heck, every other episode in the third season of TOS seems to have the Enterprise in the middle of delivering vital medical supplies to an imperiled colony somewhere or ferrying a diplomat to a vital conference or some such errand. Just looking at TOS, I'm not sure that the majority of the eps actually have the Enterprise just toodling through space, exploring, and not dealing with some sort of crisis . . ..

EDIT: Okay, just for fun, I looked at the first season of TOS, which can be presumed to set the tone for the rest of the franchise. By my count, only 9 out of 29 episodes had the ship engaged in pure exploration. The rest of the time they were responding to distress signals, checking on remote colonies, investigating lost colonists and ships, dealing with diplomatic and/or military crises, transporting VIPs from place to place, assisting endangered mining operations, and so on.

In other words, the "default" to exploration can be seen in only about one-third of the episodes . . . .
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com

Last edited by Greg Cox; July 20 2013 at 08:55 PM.
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 20 2013, 09:00 PM   #380
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
In other words, the "default" to exploration can be seen in only about one-third of the episodes . . . .
Not to mention the fact that they were always close enough to Federation space to undertake all those other types of missions.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 20 2013, 09:06 PM   #381
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: Scotty and his military comment

BillJ wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
In other words, the "default" to exploration can be seen in only about one-third of the episodes . . . .
Not to mention the fact that they were always close enough to Federation space to undertake all those other types of missions.
Plus it's kind of hard to say exploration is their default mission seeing as the first sign of a threat Kirk basically sidelines the exploration mission their on and deals with the threat.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 20 2013, 11:33 PM   #382
The Keeper
Commodore
 
The Keeper's Avatar
 
Location: Where reality ends and illusion begins
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Oops, I clicked on this, few people care anymore topic by mistake. *looks at bloody pool on floor* Did that used to be a horse?

re @ Greg Cox, great one! The motto of the show is misleading!
The Keeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21 2013, 02:03 AM   #383
CommishSleer
Fleet Captain
 
CommishSleer's Avatar
 
Location: At the After Party Still...
View CommishSleer's Twitter Profile
Re: Scotty and his military comment

I don't think pure explorers have
General Order 24
If that exists of course (not some scam between Scotty and Kirk)

I think the main aim of the 5 year mission was exploration (even if it were between delivering medical supplies or errant colonists) however Kirk was always saying we're the only defense in this sector of space.

Was there any exploration in TNG though - any star mapping, any going out into the big black just for the heck of it? I can't remember that much but I may be mistaken.
CommishSleer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21 2013, 02:12 AM   #384
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: Scotty and his military comment

A lot of this, of course, is just a matter of dramatic convenience. Giving Kirk a specific crisis to deal with or a short-term mission to carry out gets the plot rolling much faster, and gives an episode (or novel) more of a sense of urgency, than if he's just exploring some random solar system for the heck of it and something unexpected happens.

Which is not to say that you can't get a decent plot out of a purely exploratory mission, but the show was smart in not defining the Enterprise's mission too narrowly. Giving it a wide range of assignments, including military ones, opens things up to a greater variety of plots. You can do war stories, disaster-relief stories, espionage stories, first-contact-stories, morality plays, surreal mind games, horror stories, etc.
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21 2013, 03:45 AM   #385
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Belz... wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
And yet, about the only thing that has ever been consistent in every Star Trek series is that every starship, no matter what its current assignment, will default to exploration as soon as all their government-mandated chores are done.
You might be right, but then when exploring, it's expected that you'll meet other ships that are also exploring
That still doesn't explain how a ship like Voyager would immediately default to a mission of exploration the moment their ASSIGNED mission is completed. If nothing else, it establishes that in the absence of specific orders from Starfleet, every starship IN the fleet has a standing imperative to explore space and collect detailed data on anything and everything they encounter and to continue to do so even when that information serves no conceivable military or strategic benefit to the Federation or to the ship itself.

Moreover, we have learned from dialog in DS9 that it is fairly common on Starfleet vessels to be equipped with science labs and amenities for civilian researchers and staff. That, again, is another feature Starfleet ships have in common with full-time research vessels and is not shared with their military counterparts: with a few highly notable exceptions, every starship can function as a research platform, but not all of them are suitable for combat.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21 2013, 04:07 AM   #386
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Darkwing wrote: View Post
Eddie, remember Trek was based on the age of sail.
No, Trek was based on the age of American colonization (hence Rodenberry's "Wagon Train to the Stars" pitch and the treating of whole planets as simply larger-than-normal adventure towns). As such, Enterprise' mission was originally conceived as a group of professional explorers opening up space for Earth expansion on "the final frontier". The military nature of whatever organization the Enterprise belonged to wasn't really even a question (nor had they completely decided what kind of organization that really was, e.g. UESPA vs. Space Central vs. Starfleet).

The series EVOLVED to a kind of begin to resemble the Age of Sail in TOS' third season, but was never really "Based on" that concept until Nicholas Meyer picked that premise and ran it for a touchdown in Wrath of Khan.

And, just because the Macarthur was a military exploration mission does not mean Starfleet has to follow Niven and Pournelle's lead on how it would operate.
I didn't say it necessarily should. I'm suggesting then "The Mote" never had any illusions about the human space force being anything but a full standing military organization, and therefore represents a kind of reference point to what "the military can also explore" would actually look like if applied properly.

Another (possibly better) point is the Earth Alliance in Babylon 5: nobody is mincing words about what Earthforce actually is, despite the fact that their largest and most awe-inspiring starships are specifically designed for exploration. Captain Sheridan is depicted as having occasionally performed exploration missions on the Agamemnon, and we later learn that Earth-Minbari War was primarily the result of a spectacular misunderstanding during an otherwise peaceful exploration mission into Minbari space. The Earth Alliance has detailed and extensive first contact protocols and devotes a fair amount of its resources to charting new worlds and contacting new civilizations as well. So here, too, we have a space military that seems to have a very large science/exploration budget, but has never pretended to be anything other than a standing military and has never equivocated about their mission statement.

In summary: for all the characteristics people keep listing of modern militaries, the one thing they all possess -- the one thing Starfleet lacks -- is absolute clarity over the fact that they ARE the military. That there's even room for the question suggests everything we need to know.

This whole resistance to Starfleet being a military was an inane grafting in TNG, and I believe it grew out of hippie protests in the 70's calling soldiers babykillers. Roddenberry should have made the point that Starfleet was a better military than today's, instead of repudiating his own service and making ridiculous assertions that fly in the face of logic. And sadly, many who grew up on TNG instead of TOS have bought the idea.
Star Trek presented many strange ideas for many different reasons; the idea that an armed exploration service with an explicitly non-military charter could function as the primary peacekeeping force for an entire nation is NOT, in fact, the strangest thing they have ever asked us to believe.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21 2013, 04:43 AM   #387
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Except that, without actually sitting down and doing the math...
Then sit down and do the math. Of the 726 broadcast episodes of Star Trek, exactly how many of those involved Starfleet vessels being pulled away from scientific/exploration duties for military, natural disaster, police action or other emergency?

By my count, only 9 out of 29 episodes had the ship engaged in pure exploration. The rest of the time they were responding to distress signals, checking on remote colonies, investigating lost colonists and ships, dealing with diplomatic and/or military crises, transporting VIPs from place to place, assisting endangered mining operations, and so on.
Which is weird, because "checking on remote colonies, investigating lost colonies and ships, dealing with diplomatic crisis" also falls under the category of "exploration."

By MY count: 17 episodes showed the Enterprise on scientific/exploration missions, 3 depicted events independent of whatever the ship's overall mission actually was, and 10 depicted emergency/other missions. Of the "other" missions, four of them actually BEGAN as routine scientific expeditions (Galileo Seven, the Alternative Factor, Court Martial, Operation Annihilate) and one (Devil in the Dark) began as an emergency mission that later transformed into a scientific/exploration one when what began as a defensive action mutated into a first-contact scenario. Four of those emergencies (Balance of Terror, Arena, Errand of Mercy and again The Alternative Factor) were explicitly military emergencies, and of those three, only Balance of Terror wound up being resolved through combat action, while the others were resolved by relatively peaceful alien intervention.

The distribution of exploration to emergency missions holds pretty steady throughout Trek history, just at a glance. DS9 is the singular outlier in this only because it shows us a time when the Federation -- really, the entire alpha quadrant -- was being invaded by a stupefyingly prolific menace in the form of the Dominion. And yet, even in the seasons PRIOR to the outbreak of the Dominion War, the balance also holds true for DS9: roughly one emergency mission for every three exploration/scientific ones.

In other words, the "default" to exploration can be seen in only about one-third of the episodes . . . .
It's actually closer to two thirds, which falls to just over half if a series of peaceful missions suddenly devolve into emergencies (as happened five different times in TOS season 3). Another interesting case study is Star Trek Enterprise: 10 out of 26 episodes involve the Enterprise -- which is explicitly a non-military vessel being deeply involved in purely military incidents. Here, too, we're DIRECTLY TOLD that their default mission is exploration, and even Archer later comments to Captain Hernandez "You're going to spend a lot of time boldly going into combat."
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21 2013, 05:28 AM   #388
Darkwing
Commodore
 
Location: This dry land thing is too wierd!
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Darkwing wrote: View Post
Eddie, remember Trek was based on the age of sail.
No, Trek was based on the age of American colonization (hence Rodenberry's "Wagon Train to the Stars" pitch and the treating of whole planets as simply larger-than-normal adventure towns). As such, Enterprise' mission was originally conceived as a group of professional explorers opening up space for Earth expansion on "the final frontier". The military nature of whatever organization the Enterprise belonged to wasn't really even a question (nor had they completely decided what kind of organization that really was, e.g. UESPA vs. Space Central vs. Starfleet).
Yes, Roddenberry explicitly based it on the Hornblower novels. The "wagon train to the stars" bit was his pitch to the networks BECAUSE it was a current show they could grasp as a metaphor.

The series EVOLVED to a kind of begin to resemble the Age of Sail in TOS' third season, but was never really "Based on" that concept until Nicholas Meyer picked that premise and ran it for a touchdown in Wrath of Khan.
Meyer based Khan on submarines, not age of sail.

I didn't say it necessarily should. I'm suggesting then "The Mote" never had any illusions about the human space force being anything but a full standing military organization, and therefore represents a kind of reference point to what "the military can also explore" would actually look like if applied properly.
No, I'm saying that you seem to assume a military starfleet MUST look like the Macarthur.

Another (possibly better) point is the Earth Alliance in Babylon 5: nobody is mincing words about what Earthforce actually is, despite the fact that their largest and most awe-inspiring starships are specifically designed for exploration. Captain Sheridan is depicted as having occasionally performed exploration missions on the Agamemnon, and we later learn that Earth-Minbari War was primarily the result of a spectacular misunderstanding during an otherwise peaceful exploration mission into Minbari space. The Earth Alliance has detailed and extensive first contact protocols and devotes a fair amount of its resources to charting new worlds and contacting new civilizations as well. So here, too, we have a space military that seems to have a very large science/exploration budget, but has never pretended to be anything other than a standing military and has never equivocated about their mission statement.
JMS did it right. Roddenberry did the first time around, but got it wrong the second.

In summary: for all the characteristics people keep listing of modern militaries, the one thing they all possess -- the one thing Starfleet lacks -- is absolute clarity over the fact that they ARE the military. That there's even room for the question suggests everything we need to know.
That tells me you know nothing about the military.

Star Trek presented many strange ideas for many different reasons; the idea that an armed exploration service with an explicitly non-military charter could function as the primary peacekeeping force for an entire nation is NOT, in fact, the strangest thing they have ever asked us to believe.
I didn't say "strange", I said inane, as in stupid and irrational. Why are you so devoted to "proving" the non-military nature of a patently military organization?
__________________
If you don’t drink the kool-aid, you’re a baaad person - Rev Jim Jones
Almond kool-aid, anyone? Or do you prefer pudding?- Darkwing
Darkwing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21 2013, 05:42 AM   #389
Darkwing
Commodore
 
Location: This dry land thing is too wierd!
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
That still doesn't explain how a ship like Voyager would immediately default to a mission of exploration the moment their ASSIGNED mission is completed. If nothing else, it establishes that in the absence of specific orders from Starfleet, every starship IN the fleet has a standing imperative to explore space and collect detailed data on anything and everything they encounter and to continue to do so even when that information serves no conceivable military or strategic benefit to the Federation or to the ship itself.
Um, when most of the galaxy is still unknown, any military will explore. It's what we do when we don't know what's out there and we don't have a mission to hand. Military or strategic benefit don't enter into it. We don't do so much now because we've already explored this planet.

[/quote]Moreover, we have learned from dialog in DS9 that it is fairly common on Starfleet vessels to be equipped with science labs and amenities for civilian researchers and staff. That, again, is another feature Starfleet ships have in common with full-time research vessels and is not shared with their military counterparts: with a few highly notable exceptions, every starship can function as a research platform, but not all of them are suitable for combat.[/QUOTE]NOBODY had a science ship back in the age of sail, and navy ships still managed a lot of science. You're mistaking the Calypso for a contemporary of the Victory or Constitution. If we still had much planet to explore, our warships today would find some space for labs. But with instant communications and a fully charted world, we don't need more than survey gear (ok, visual navigation gear, but it can be used to survey) and meteorological gear, an oil lab, and sickbay, plus nbc gear. Starfleet is sometimes in instant comms range, often out of it, and therefore needs more of that stuff to hand because they can't send pictures and samples back to a lab for someone else to look at.
__________________
If you don’t drink the kool-aid, you’re a baaad person - Rev Jim Jones
Almond kool-aid, anyone? Or do you prefer pudding?- Darkwing
Darkwing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 21 2013, 06:02 AM   #390
CommishSleer
Fleet Captain
 
CommishSleer's Avatar
 
Location: At the After Party Still...
View CommishSleer's Twitter Profile
Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
And yet, about the only thing that has ever been consistent in every Star Trek series is that every starship, no matter what its current assignment, will default to exploration as soon as all their government-mandated chores are done.
You might be right, but then when exploring, it's expected that you'll meet other ships that are also exploring
That still doesn't explain how a ship like Voyager would immediately default to a mission of exploration the moment their ASSIGNED mission is completed. If nothing else, it establishes that in the absence of specific orders from Starfleet, every starship IN the fleet has a standing imperative to explore space and collect detailed data on anything and everything they encounter and to continue to do so even when that information serves no conceivable military or strategic benefit to the Federation or to the ship itself.
I haven't watched the first episodes of VOY for a while but my understanding was that Voyager was a science ship. Amazingly armed with a tremendous amount of weapons and shuttles but non-the-less her primary mission was of research.
But then the first time we saw her she was on her way to intercept a Marquis ship. Hardly a scientific mission.

And the Marquis were against the Federation because they were on lots of exploration missions?

Admittedly during her trek across the Delta quadrant it seemed that Janeway was also interested in scientific study as well as diplomatic and ways to speed up her ship. She was a scientific ship after all. I'm sure information she gathered about the Delta Quadrant was of interest to Starfleet headquarters. The location of different species, their Warp scale, their danger level to the Federation. I don't think Janeway ever went on military reconnaissance deliberately. But I think Starfleet military would be very interested in the Borg and Species 23456 (whatever).
A starmap of the Delta Quadrant and the location of strategic planets would be of interest to the military.
CommishSleer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:25 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.