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Old July 19 2013, 09:38 PM   #196
Christopher
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

theenglish wrote: View Post
But in this version, Jonathan isn't really a "mentor" figure. His role is more of the father of an "exceptional" child. He doesn't really have any answers for Clark--other than to keep his powers a secret.
Yeah, but this version of Jonathan sucks. The worst, absolute worst kind of father for an exceptional child is the kind who teaches that child to be ashamed of his exceptionalism, and forbids him to do the things he's capable of doing. I feel that the way MoS Jonathan treats Clark borders on emotional abuse, even if he didn't intend it that way.


What he does offer Clark is a symbol of humanity, and that part the movie did quite well.
I couldn't agree less. Normally, Jonathan is the role model whose example of goodness and kindness shapes Superman into who he becomes. Here, he's the character whose values Clark has to reject in order to become Superman, the guy who's been relentlessly holding him back and whose fears about how Clark would be treated by the public turn out to be wholly wrong. If he's Clark's symbol of humanity, then the only reason this Superman has to identify with humanity is that his examples of Kryptonians are mostly even worse. Well, except for Jor-El, the actual hero of the movie.
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Old July 19 2013, 09:44 PM   #197
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Jor-El in Man Of Steel made the earth a target I'd hardly call him a hero, but he did help get Lois off of the Krytonian vessel, I guess that's something.
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Old July 19 2013, 11:17 PM   #198
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

^ Because heroes can never make mistakes, especially when they have no way of knowing they're making one? Christopher is dead-on here, IMO.

I also noticed that in Smallville, when Clark meets the Jor-El hologram, he's thoughtful enough to tell Jonathan and Matha that he met "his biological parent". But Snyder-Clark just plain tells his Martha he met his "dad", no qualifier attached, and sure enough, she winces. Boo!
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Old July 19 2013, 11:33 PM   #199
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Christopher wrote: View Post
theenglish wrote: View Post
But in this version, Jonathan isn't really a "mentor" figure. His role is more of the father of an "exceptional" child. He doesn't really have any answers for Clark--other than to keep his powers a secret.
Yeah, but this version of Jonathan sucks. The worst, absolute worst kind of father for an exceptional child is the kind who teaches that child to be ashamed of his exceptionalism, and forbids him to do the things he's capable of doing. I feel that the way MoS Jonathan treats Clark borders on emotional abuse, even if he didn't intend it that way.


What he does offer Clark is a symbol of humanity, and that part the movie did quite well.
I couldn't agree less. Normally, Jonathan is the role model whose example of goodness and kindness shapes Superman into who he becomes. Here, he's the character whose values Clark has to reject in order to become Superman, the guy who's been relentlessly holding him back and whose fears about how Clark would be treated by the public turn out to be wholly wrong. If he's Clark's symbol of humanity, then the only reason this Superman has to identify with humanity is that his examples of Kryptonians are mostly even worse. Well, except for Jor-El, the actual hero of the movie.
I agree. In this movie Jonathan was pretty much a wuss. He didn't teach Clark to be strong and stand for what is right. He showed him that basically being a coward was the best way to live. And die.

Jonathan's "sacrifice" was hollow, and served no purpose. I live in tornado alley, and I guarantee you that no one -- NO ONE -- would stand there and let themselves be sucked up into a bigass tornado.

This movie wasn't very well written. Not at all.

But thank goodness Costner wasn't directing. Then it would have been 4 hours instead of 2 1/2.

Side note: John Schneider's character in Smallville would have taught Clark that if he needed to use his abilities he would have to be careful to not let people see him doing it, not to avoid using them at all. And he would have punched that tornado right in the face.
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Old July 19 2013, 11:48 PM   #200
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Smallville's Clark actually did save Lana from a tornado in one season finale, and his secret wasn't exposed in the process. And lemme tell ya, if your version of Clark Kent is less heroic than Tom Welling's version, then you've got problems.
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Old July 19 2013, 11:51 PM   #201
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Smallville's Clark actually did save Lana from a tornado in one season finale, and his secret wasn't exposed in the process. And lemme tell ya, if your version of Clark Kent is less heroic than Tom Welling's version, then you've got problems.
Exactly.

And I never really liked Welling.

EDIT: I'd like to see Adam Baldwin do a "grownup" Superman. That might be fun.
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Old July 20 2013, 12:00 AM   #202
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

^Baldwin did a decent job as the voice of Superman in Superman: Doomsday. He didn't really stand out for me, though. But I liked the job done by Matt Bomer, another popular live-action Superman candidate, in the recent Superman: Unbound movie.

Actually, my problems with Man of Steel are strictly with the story. I think Henry Cavill is the best screen Superman since Christopher Reeve, and I'd love to see him in a better Superman movie.
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Old July 20 2013, 12:10 AM   #203
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

I like Matt Bomer, but he's not a big guy.

Correction: Google says he's 6' tall. Looking at him next to Zachary Levi he looks much shorter.

But still, he's not a big guy.
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Old July 20 2013, 05:48 AM   #204
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Christopher wrote: View Post
I just don't accept that the death of a parent is somehow an obligatory part of every fictional character's backstory. That's too formulaic. Superman got by in comics and TV just fine for over 20 years with both adoptive parents alive -- obviously it is possible to tell good Superman stories without orphaning him a second time. It. Is. Not. Required.
You're right that it doesn't need to be a part of every hero's origin...and I am not saying he needs to bean orphan.

But having Superman not able to save a "weaker" human who has protected him his whole life, and who has an especially strong hold on his heart (his 3rd weakness) -- that's powerful.

Also, knowing that a big part of his life is gone..again, makes the "god" a real human.

Other Superheroes can have their parents intact....but losing just one (and it could be Martha; mothers rarely die, and even rarer, a widower survives), would be enough for Superman.
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Old July 20 2013, 09:31 AM   #205
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Carcazoid wrote: View Post

EDIT: I'd like to see Adam Baldwin do a "grownup" Superman. That might be fun.
If they'd rebooted the series or recast the role after Superman IV, he would have been a great replacement for Reeve. I was sure at the time that the success of Batman would have led to a new Superman movie in the early 1990s.
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Old July 20 2013, 11:42 AM   #206
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Christopher wrote: View Post
I think it was effective in that it showed how mind-bogglingly stupid this version of Jonathan Kent was. He was a man who lived in fear and who, for all his rhetoric about how his son would achieve great things someday, spent his life teaching his son to be afraid to use his abilities for fear of discovery. If this Jonathan hadn't held his son back, then Superman probably would've been a more established and seasoned hero before Zod showed up and would've been more capable of standing up to him without letting a whole vast metropolis get destroyed and probably millions of people killed. Heck, if you ask me, Jonathan was as much the villain of MoS as Zod was. (And Jor-El was the actual hero, with Clark/Superman as an occasionally helpful sidekick.)
I agree. And if Jonathon is to die it should "mean something" not be over saving a dog. The use of Jonathon Kent is one of my biggest problems with MoS.

Not to mention Jonathan's added stupidity in that scene of telling people to shelter from a tornado under an overpass. That is absolutely the worst advice you can possibly give in that situation. The overpass concentrates and intensifies the wind, it keeps you from running if the tornado comes right for you, and clustering there can block emergency vehicles.
While true, people have sought shelter in under/overpassses from tornadoes (and there's two notable examples of it in common tornado "home footage) and survived, usually in cases where the tornado didn't hit the overpass directly. So while a bad idea it's something that HAS been done by people.
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Old July 20 2013, 12:55 PM   #207
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

That was the point. Clark should not reveal himself by saving just a dog. They already saved everyone from the tornado, Jonathan then saved the dog, and then Jonathan made it clear that he didn't want Clark to reveal himself in front of all these people just to save him. Had it been a child or a whole group of people, Jonathan wouldn't have stopped Clark from saving them.
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Old July 20 2013, 01:05 PM   #208
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Morpheus 02 wrote: View Post
But having Superman not able to save a "weaker" human who has protected him his whole life, and who has an especially strong hold on his heart (his 3rd weakness) -- that's powerful.

Also, knowing that a big part of his life is gone..again, makes the "god" a real human.
Being shown as part of a close family relationship where he can be himself can also help make him more human. Indeed, that was part of the point of the Byrne reboot. Pre-Crisis, with his parents dead, Clark/Superman was a detached outsider who never really let his guard down and showed his true self to any of the human beings in his life. He was always hiding and tricking them, putting on an act, whether it was the act of Clark or the act of Superman. The only times he was himself were in the Fortress of Solitude with his robots, a very Kryptonian environment -- or when he was with fellow Justice Leaguers who were themselves larger than life.

But in the post-Byrne comics, and in Lois and Clark, having regular contact with both his parents made him feel a lot more human. Byrne's innovation was in abandoning the idea that Clark Kent was just a facade the alien wore, and instead making Clark Kent the real person and Superman the facade. That made him much more human and relatable. And that continuing tie to his living parents was the linchpin of the whole thing, the reason why he saw himself as a Kent first and a superhero second. He didn't need to lose Jonathan to be humanized. He was plenty human with both parents alive, more human than he'd ever been before. Because it's not just our grief and loss that makes us human, it's our relationships. The reason loss makes us grieve is because it takes those relationships away from us.


Other Superheroes can have their parents intact....but losing just one (and it could be Martha; mothers rarely die, and even rarer, a widower survives), would be enough for Superman.
And Superman can also have his parents intact. This is not some abstract, untested suggestion. It was done in the comics and almost every adaptation thereof for over 20 years, and it was done successfully.


Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
While true, people have sought shelter in under/overpassses from tornadoes (and there's two notable examples of it in common tornado "home footage) and survived, usually in cases where the tornado didn't hit the overpass directly. So while a bad idea it's something that HAS been done by people.
People have survived doing lots of dangerous things. That doesn't make them good ideas, and it doesn't make it any less irresponsible for the filmmakers to put such horrible advice in their movie.
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Old July 20 2013, 01:10 PM   #209
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Christopher wrote: View Post
People have survived doing lots of dangerous things. That doesn't make them good ideas, and it doesn't make it any less irresponsible for the filmmakers to put such horrible advice in their movie.
Oh come on. Nobody is going to take shelter from a tornado under an overpass because he saw it in a movie. They take shelter because there is nothing else there and time is extremely short.
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Old July 20 2013, 05:57 PM   #210
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

But in the post-Byrne comics, and in Lois and Clark, having regular contact with both his parents made him feel a lot more human. Byrne's innovation was in abandoning the idea that Clark Kent was just a facade the alien wore, and instead making Clark Kent the real person and Superman the facade. That made him much more human and relatable. And that continuing tie to his living parents was the linchpin of the whole thing, the reason why he saw himself as a Kent first and a superhero second. He didn't need to lose Jonathan to be humanized. He was plenty human with both parents alive, more human than he'd ever been before. Because it's not just our grief and loss that makes us human, it's our relationships. The reason loss makes us grieve is because it takes those relationships away from us.
Totally agree with this. Lois & Clark's Superman was the most human of all on-screen incarnations I've seen. I always loved the scenes where he'd go talk to his parents about something that was really bothering him.

Did Jo-El ever show up on L&C? I don't remember ever seeing him at all. I think the episodes where he meets up with Kryptonians were some of the weakest of the series.
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