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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old July 20 2013, 03:08 AM   #31
Tom Hendricks
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

Grant wrote: View Post
CaptainBearclaw wrote: View Post
Thank you grant, I was gonna ask what else was in that workprint.

You got all the larger cuts--all that was left was individual lines cut here and there--which would never get seen in a deleted section because they are just too short--but interesting.
That is the beauty of seeing the workprint--you get to see many tiny differences that you'd never see in a simple 'deleted section'
I'd happily buy any future TWOK release that included either a deleted section or even better the workprint itself (obviously I prefer it in color--LOL)

CaptainBearclaw wrote: View Post
My rudimentary list for TVH. Don't hesitate to correct me.

The famous prologue. Only thing to note here is that the score seems to just be an assembly of different Rosenman pieces.
A scene at Starfleet HQ showing Janice Rand once again.
Saavik and Kirk discussing her pregnancy.
The famous scene of Sulu and his young great-grandfather. Cut for child actor's less-than-pleasing performance.

P.S. Keep checking the first three lists, I'm constantly updating them.
Other stuff from TVH was Sarek and Chapel in a turbo-lift just before his dramatic entrance.
A brief exchange between Sarek and the Fed Pres after the klingon storms out,
a scene where the surgeon asks "Why hasn't this man been prepped!" (acknowledging the fact Chekov hasn't yet had his head shaved for the brain surgery)

By the way the scene with Sulu's great-grandfather was not shot at all--the child got stage fright and just as Nimoy had calmed him down his nutty stage-mother flipped out and started screaming at him and he froze up completely (from Takei's autobiography)



Tom Hendricks wrote: View Post
Maybe someone can either confirm or correct my memory of Star Trek 6 TVH. When they are at the court proceeding and Worf is defending them, I distinctly remember when it was shown in the theater a scene after it almost over where Bones asked Worf "When is it our turn?" and Worf tells him something like, "It happen already, that both sides go at the same time." Yet I have never seen this scene on any home release.
That scene was in the script, the novel and perhaps the comic(?), but it was never in any version that was shown in theaters to the best of my knowledge.
I never read the script, novel or the comic. However I feel like I know I have seen it. You know what I mean, I wouldn't swear to it but it feels like a fact to me.
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Old July 20 2013, 03:11 AM   #32
CaptainBearclaw
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

Thanks for the kind words, Grant. I'm thinking of getting the scripts avaliable through Roddenberry.com. Just curious, what do you think of my completed TMP list. Anything I missed?
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Old July 20 2013, 03:26 AM   #33
Grant
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

Tom Hendricks wrote: View Post
Grant wrote: View Post
CaptainBearclaw wrote: View Post
Thank you grant, I was gonna ask what else was in that workprint.

You got all the larger cuts--all that was left was individual lines cut here and there--which would never get seen in a deleted section because they are just too short--but interesting.
That is the beauty of seeing the workprint--you get to see many tiny differences that you'd never see in a simple 'deleted section'
I'd happily buy any future TWOK release that included either a deleted section or even better the workprint itself (obviously I prefer it in color--LOL)


Other stuff from TVH was Sarek and Chapel in a turbo-lift just before his dramatic entrance.
A brief exchange between Sarek and the Fed Pres after the klingon storms out,
a scene where the surgeon asks "Why hasn't this man been prepped!" (acknowledging the fact Chekov hasn't yet had his head shaved for the brain surgery)

By the way the scene with Sulu's great-grandfather was not shot at all--the child got stage fright and just as Nimoy had calmed him down his nutty stage-mother flipped out and started screaming at him and he froze up completely (from Takei's autobiography)



Tom Hendricks wrote: View Post
Maybe someone can either confirm or correct my memory of Star Trek 6 TVH. When they are at the court proceeding and Worf is defending them, I distinctly remember when it was shown in the theater a scene after it almost over where Bones asked Worf "When is it our turn?" and Worf tells him something like, "It happen already, that both sides go at the same time." Yet I have never seen this scene on any home release.
That scene was in the script, the novel and perhaps the comic(?), but it was never in any version that was shown in theaters to the best of my knowledge.
I never read the script, novel or the comic. However I feel like I know I have seen it. You know what I mean, I wouldn't swear to it but it feels like a fact to me.
I know what you mean and i wish it WAS floating out there because we'd be more likely to see it if it had appeared in SOME version of the movie as opposed to being set aside at the initial editing phase.

A few more bits from TWOK that I did NOT see in the workprint............

These must have been very early cuts because I HAVE seen stills of these scenes...........

McCoy working on Chekov's ear as Ent heads towards the nebula--David is told to stay put.
A bookend scene a couple of pages later where Chekov wakes up and demands to go to the bridge--David sneaks out of sickbay during this bit.

Originally part of the "I chase him round the moons of Nibia.." scene was an earlier portion where Khan intergates Chekov on Genesis and gloats how Reliant is similar to Ent which Kirk let him study up on all those years ago. (This scene in it's complete form was originally much earlier in the movie and they probably cut it when they moved the latter portion to later in the movie.

And stuff I didn't see in the workprint because the workprint at UCLA abruptly ends when Spock leaves to sacrifice himself.....

The 'baby and the bomb' reprise of the baby as Genesis comes to life.

Saavik saying over the intercom how beautiful Genesis is just as Spock dies (birth and death at the same time thing they were going for)

An prologue and an epilogue to the funeral scene.

More nice dialogue between David/Kirk in the cabin. When Kirk says, "I should be on the bridge." David stands up to him and says, "Are you running away from me?" Kirk replies, "I suppose I was."

For those who are good a lip reading----they took David's "are you running" line and looped over it "can I talk to you" or something. But turn down the volume and read his lips he DOES say, "Are you running away from me?"
They simply looped over it and cut Kirk's reply out.

Meyer went to war and thank god won---when the studio wanted the ENTIRE Kirk/David scene cut!!!

He later said it was Butrick's best scene in the movie.

And lastly the bridge finale' scene, a tiny edited portion of which can be seen on the youtube clip with a portion of the 'Romulan heritage' clip.

They looped over some of the dialogue in the bridge finale' clip to have Kirk say 'David Marcus' instead of 'my son' because of course they wanted to keep that secret till the movie came out.

THE END
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Old July 20 2013, 03:32 AM   #34
Grant
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

CaptainBearclaw wrote: View Post
Thanks for the kind words, Grant. I'm thinking of getting the scripts avaliable through Roddenberry.com. Just curious, what do you think of my completed TMP list. Anything I missed?
There are nice to own BUT---go to Trekcore and read them for free!!!!

Just go to movies and then pick the movie you want and then scroll down and they have all the original uncut scripts there to read for free!!

Facinating read and I'll bet you think most of the cut stuff was worth keeping. When you read it it seems that way, but when you see it as film you can see why they cut most of what they did.
But i must say there are many bits and lines that fill in plot holes and are funny and witty and I think they should have kept.

Now i will silently pray they will include thse scenes on some future home video release before I die of old age.

Oh I just noticed.........as for TMP, that ironically is the movie I least know about the cuts scenes for. But most of what was cut ends up in 1 or more of the 3 versions of the movie....

What I know isn't in any version is......

the security guard zap
Decker/Ilia in engineering at the end
the alternate spacewalk of course
the Nogura scene that was never shot

the special Longer edition threw in so much stuff--good and bad-that it cleared the cutting room floor for the most part.
I think they would have included the security guard zap if it had, had the completed FX!!!
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Old July 20 2013, 03:52 AM   #35
CaptainBearclaw
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

Oh, I just assumed you'd know if I'd missed anything.

About the scripts, I must more enjoy having a physical copy to comb through. I own the complete comic collection Cd-rom and yet I'm still collecting Star Trek comic books. By the way, I love the extended version of TMP. I made a point of buying the laserdisc.

I do still have a little bit to add there though. Nimoy originally ad-libbed a really funny line towards the end of the film, just cut for tone purposes.
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Old July 20 2013, 03:55 AM   #36
Grant
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

CaptainBearclaw wrote: View Post
Oh, I just assumed you'd know if I'd missed anything.

About the scripts, I must more enjoy having a physical copy to comb through. I own the complete comic collection Cd-rom and yet I'm still collecting Star Trek comic books. By the way, I love the extended version of TMP. I made a point of buying the laserdisc.

I do still have a little bit to add there though. Nimoy originally ad-libbed a really funny line towards the end of the film, just cut for tone purposes.


Was it the follow up to "Out there, thataway."

where Spock replies, "A most logical choice captain."

There was NO WAY Shatner was gonna let anybody else have the last line though!

I had hard copies from 1989 to a few years ago when they got soaked in a hurricane, but by then I knew them by heart. I have printed out many pages from the internet since then, especially from TWOK after I saw the workprint.

All my cellphone ringtones are cut lines from the workprint!!

Khan has one cut line "Plague upon you all!!!!"----
i reserve that one for people I don't like.

And David had a line, "YOU DUMB BASTARD."---which I use for my boss. Hopefully he never calls me when i'm nearby! LOL.
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Old July 20 2013, 04:18 AM   #37
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

Actually there was another take where he claimed to have stayed to protect the Enterprise from its erratic, human crew.

Pretty funny, but it ruins the ending.

Check out this page for less of a brief overview of cut footage:
http://ottens.co.uk/forgottentrek/sc...otion-picture/

So, was that David line when he was attacking Kirk with a knife in the original scene?
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Old July 20 2013, 04:34 AM   #38
Grant
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

CaptainBearclaw wrote: View Post
Actually there was another take where he claimed to have stayed to protect the Enterprise from its erratic, human crew.

Pretty funny, but it ruins the ending.

Check out this page for less of a brief overview of cut footage:
http://ottens.co.uk/forgottentrek/sc...otion-picture/

So, was that David line when he was attacking Kirk with a knife in the original scene?
Exactly right! That's the exact point where the two versions of the fight diverge...

In the cut we know, David says, "You..." and they cut out "...dumb bastard, we were still there! We heard their screams all the way to the transporter room!"
They cut out the rest of his outburst and show the fightcontinue. Then......

the re-shoot footage is inserted where Kirk quickly defeats David and walks to carol and says, "Is that david?"

Implying that Kirk knew all along he had a son.

In the original uncut version in the script/workprint David wrestles Kirk to the ground and Caol runs in and after David says, "Stay back--I'm gonna kill him!" Carol replies, "If you do that you'll have killed your father!" And Kirk gets to his feet and says, "Is that true?" she nods yes. Kirk- "Why didn't you tell me?"

Honestly for some reason Butrick and Besch are not good in that version. They are good in most of the other stuff in the movie, but their acting in that one scene is off.

On the other hand, MANY of the original unlooped lines in the workprint are not anywhere near as good as the ones that they looped in later in post.
Koenig's original line readings are poor in many scenes, but decent in the final cut.

They really did wonders in shaping the performances in post-production looping! Especially the 'new' actors Alley, Butrick, Besch.
So I guess if they had kept the original fight scene intact--Meyer could have gotten better line readings in post.
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Old July 20 2013, 04:47 AM   #39
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

Woah... I honestly don't know which one is better. I do like to think that Kirk knew about David. Was Kirk's speech always there, 'cause that makes it seem like he definitely knew. Were ALL the scenes reshot after the fight? Even the KHAN?!
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Old July 20 2013, 05:06 AM   #40
Grant
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

CaptainBearclaw wrote: View Post
Woah... I honestly don't know which one is better. I do like to think that Kirk knew about David. Was Kirk's speech always there, 'cause that makes it seem like he definitely knew. Were ALL the scenes reshot after the fight? Even the KHAN?!

What speech? The speech he gives to Khan before he says, "KHAAAAAN!"

Yes that was in there.

There was one other little change.

When alone with carol he originally said, "Why didn't you tell ME?"

The re-shot a single line where he now says, "I did what you asked--I stayed away, why didn't you tell HIM?"

Watch the scene where Kirk is sitting on the container in the corridor in Regula and look at the pattern of the rock wall behind him---the lines on the wall all run in a certain pattern.

For the single re-shot line--Why didn't you tell HIM?----the pattern on the wall is completely different.

They had obviously quickly grabbed a section of the corridor wall for the little re-shoot and didn't realize the pattern wasn't the same as in the original set-up.

Also if you compare the two versions of the fight---the remaining portion of the 'original version' and the inserted 'new version'---you can clearly see the multi-colored containers in the background of the fight are set up different and the colors are not the same. It was a really quick last minute re-shoot.

One other thing to look for when watching the Director's cut---
When Carol is talking to Chekov after he is controlled by Khan they added in a line where she says, "Genesis is a civillian project under my control!"

But just before she says it, the young black actor playing "Madison"(?) blurts out---"it's a civill...!!" and then stops and looks chagrined.
That line of his is NOT in the script and I think he got so pumped for the take he blurted out HER line.
Besch pauses, shakes her head and then repeats the line.

It's all very awkward but it seems like something that COULD happen in context of the scene.
Watch that scene and see what you think happened.
Whether it was cleverly ad-libbed that way or just happened it seems to work in the scene.

Last edited by Grant; July 20 2013 at 05:47 AM.
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Old July 20 2013, 05:19 AM   #41
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

I haven't seen the Director's Cut, I own the blu-ray.

So, was the blackface fall in there? Were there any visual effects?
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Old July 20 2013, 05:24 AM   #42
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

Jusr re-checked my TWOK director's cut copy........

The scene where the other actor appears to have stepped on Besch's line is at exactly 34:18

The exact point where the fight changes from the old to the reshhot footage is 1:09:18---notice the colored tubes are no longer in the corner but closer to where Kirk/David are fighting.

And the brief re-shhot of Kirk's one line in the corridor is at 1:15:52----it's the head-on angle where in all the other shots there is lines cut into the rock running horizontally on the left, native rock in the middle and a vertical pillar on the right.

In the one bit that was re-shot it's all native rock on the left and middle and most tellingly the vertical pillar turns right at a 45 degree angle just before the bottom of the frame.
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Old July 20 2013, 05:34 AM   #43
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

CaptainBearclaw wrote: View Post
I haven't seen the Director's Cut, I own the blu-ray.

So, was the blackface fall in there? Were there any visual effects?
No, the scene outside the cargo carrier was filmed exactly as scripted........

Chekov's peeks into the little window to the left of the air-lock/door--the child's face appears and he screams--Terrell looks over and the face is gone---Chekov says "It was a face-like a child."---Terrell says, "You're crazy." Chekov says sadly (LOL), "I saw it!"--Terrell says, "this looks like an air-lock.." which continues into "....hey give me a hand."--which is in the final version.

I know nothing of the 'blackface' stunt other than stuff i have read here in this forum.

What I know for fact is that they DID shoot the scene EXACTLY as it appears in the script and it WAS edited into the movie at one point. Whether there were other alternate takes I don't know, but I am happy to know that a version exists as it was scripted because THAT version CAN be featured in a deleted section without any qualms.

When you say were there any visual effects--do you mean in that scene or in the movie in general?

The workprint contains NO visual effect at all other than the re-used TMP footage-none. In fact they used a lot more of the TMP footage in the workprint than in the final feature--they follow the ENT all the way to the Jupiter flyby from TMP in the workprint--I'm glad they didn't use that much TMP footage in the final cut.
And no music at all except stock music owned (I guess) by Paramount taken from what sounds like a really old western!!
It's laugh out loud funny seeing the ENT leaving spacedock to music originally from a 'cattle-drive' scene from some old western.

Last edited by Grant; July 20 2013 at 05:49 AM.
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Old July 20 2013, 08:32 AM   #44
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

A pet peeve re "official": who's "officiating" or what "office" makes this "official"? For Pete's sake, the word has a meaning...

re TMP
  • I don't think there is a previously shot version of the Klingons' destruction other than the pyrotechnic tests seen in some of the behind the scenes stuff.
  • Also re the Klingons, everything in the film was shot in widescreen, not "possibly".
  • By various accounts the spacewalk/memory wall was largely shot, but scrapped.
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Old July 20 2013, 01:48 PM   #45
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Re: The Official Deleted/Alternate Material Thread

Just so you know, Maurice, I just thought 'official' made it sound cooler.

in regards to the klingons, I thought the pyrotechnic stuff was part of the original rejected special effects, thus part of the movie at some point. Also, the only reason I said the one shot might've been in wide-screen is because in the movie it appears full-screen and I thought they might've just thought it 1;33;1 to save time.
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