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Old July 18 2013, 02:22 AM   #16
Sran
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Re: Klingon Neutral Zone

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Yup, the Planet of Galactic Peace was in the Neutral Zone. But which one?
I don't know. I'd guess it's closer to Klingon space because the BOP was able to find Enterprise fairly easily. Plus, there's dialogue from McCoy about how they're "bound to bump into the Klingons."

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Old July 18 2013, 02:09 PM   #17
C.E. Evans
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Re: Klingon Neutral Zone

Anwar wrote: View Post
Then why would there be Klingon Battlecruisers inside the Zone ready to intercept any Fed ships that went in there?
I don't think they were inside the Zone, but immediately outside of it on their side waiting for any Federation ship that crossed into Klingon territory (like most borders, it may take only seconds for a ship to cross the Zone).
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Old July 19 2013, 08:41 AM   #18
Timo
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Re: Klingon Neutral Zone

In TNG "The Enemy", it took a modern Warbird five hours to cross the RNZ at supposed maximum warp...

Since the Romulan Neutral Zone exists, and a NZ has been mentioned in the Klingon context as well, we are well excused for thinking that the Federation always wants a Neutral Zone on all of its borders. That is, no clear-cut line where one nacelle can be on the Fed size and the other on the enemy size, but always a nice and thick buffer region that gives plenty of early warning about (uncloaked) invasions and spy activities and smuggling attempts.

Put another way, we have never really heard of a Federation border that would not feature a Neutral Zone. Except, apparently, the border against Cardassia, where there is no neutrality, just two sides brushing against each other but banned from holding armaments.

On the other hand, our TOS heroes typically deal with "the Neutral Zone". How can they tell which one, if more than one exist? Sometimes it's clear from the context, or perhaps from preceding but offscreen dialogue, but for example in ST5:TFF, it most definitely is not...

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Old July 19 2013, 11:15 AM   #19
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Re: Klingon Neutral Zone

Timo wrote: View Post
In TNG "The Enemy", it took a modern Warbird five hours to cross the RNZ at supposed maximum warp
Moving at an angle through the zone?

Sran wrote: View Post
I'd guess it's closer to Klingon space because the BOP was able to find Enterprise fairly easily.
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It probably wasn't that hard to "find" the Enterprise.

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Old July 19 2013, 07:14 PM   #20
Timo
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Re: Klingon Neutral Zone

Moving at an angle through the zone?
At an angle, perhaps, but not corkscrewing or anything. The difference wouldn't be more than a few dozen %; we're still talking about a timescale of hours here.

FWIW, Tomalak's Warbird was tracing the scoutship Pi through the Zone. Would these two vessels have come from drastically different directions? Certainly the Pi would have attempted to minimize exposure, thus moving across the NZ and then UFP space to Galorndon Core along the shortest possible path, normal to the local surface of the Zone.

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Old July 19 2013, 10:46 PM   #21
Harvey
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Re: Klingon Neutral Zone

BK613 wrote: View Post
^^
it's been a while since I watched TWOK but I don't think they ever referred to it as "the Klingon Neutral Zone", just "the Neutral Zone" ( or "the Zone".)
You're right. I had misremembered that. Still, the presence of the Klingon ships still confuses the issue. In context, it's hard to read it as anything other than the Klingon Neutral Zone. Although the Klingons catch the Enterprise off guard, there's no indication from anyone that their appearance is a surprise.

I suppose, like you argue, it could be a fiction that doesn't represent the "reality" (heh) of the rest of the Star Trek universe, but wouldn't that undermine the point of the test?
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Old July 19 2013, 10:50 PM   #22
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Re: Klingon Neutral Zone

There'd be no appearance of surprise, I imagine, because the cadets are expecting a surprise. That's what the KM scenario is all about, isn't it?
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Old July 19 2013, 10:53 PM   #23
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Re: Klingon Neutral Zone

I thought it was about losing and facing death, not being caught off guard by something that would never actually happen.
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Old July 19 2013, 11:02 PM   #24
Timo
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Re: Klingon Neutral Zone

Well, it was definitely about things the cadets didn't believe possible - that would be the whole point of the "losing" bit.

Whether it would be unrealistic to have Klingon battle cruisers inside the Romulan Neutral Zone, we don't know. There has been all this talk about a Klingon-Romulan alliance, and even though none of it is actually verified on screen, it would certainly account for this sort of "military aid". For an opposite take, it wouldn't be unexpected to find Klingons luring Feds into the Romulan Neutral Zone to die; the resulting war between Feds and Romulans would be to the benefit of the Klingon Empire. For all we know, Saavik was just reenacting a set of events that had been hot news a few months ago!

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Old July 20 2013, 12:59 AM   #25
Pavonis
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Re: Klingon Neutral Zone

Harvey wrote: View Post
I thought it was about losing and facing death, not being caught off guard by something that would never actually happen.
That's what the scenario teaches, but it does it by continuously throwing new and worse obstacles up for the cadet. Klingons in the Klingon Neutral Zone would be expected; Klingons in the Romulan Neutral Zone would make a cadet sweat, maybe even panic.

Reality is bound to throw curveballs at Starfleet officers, and the KM scenario is about getting used to situations going to hell quickly no matter what you do.
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Old July 20 2013, 01:42 AM   #26
Kevman7987
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Re: Klingon Neutral Zone

You know, I wonder what happens if the cadet playing captain decides to turn and run as soon as the Klingons jam the frequencies and prepare to attack? In "real life," after destroying the Federation ship, they destroy the Kobayashi Maru after looting it. Why let two ships be destroyed when you can survive? Good of the many and all that?
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Old July 20 2013, 02:06 AM   #27
Pavonis
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Re: Klingon Neutral Zone

If a Starfleet cadet turns tail and runs, would they ever get command? "Risk is their business", according to Kirk. If a cadet doesn't want to risk, they shouldn't be in Starfleet, much less in command of a starship.
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Old July 20 2013, 02:40 AM   #28
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Re: Klingon Neutral Zone

Pavonis wrote: View Post
If a Starfleet cadet turns tail and runs, would they ever get command? "Risk is their business", according to Kirk. If a cadet doesn't want to risk, they shouldn't be in Starfleet, much less in command of a starship.
One ship against an enemy fleet. All that will be accomplished is the death of your crew and the destruction of your ship. It doesn't seem to be bravery and sacrifice, it looks more like suicide.

"Yeah, we'll give you a command. We love commanders who get themselves and their crews killed by going into a no-win scenario ignoring the escape option when the only other option is death."
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Old July 20 2013, 02:52 AM   #29
Pavonis
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Re: Klingon Neutral Zone

Starships almost always operate alone. Being afraid to engage when outnumbered definitely means they shouldn't be commanding a starship, because starships are the first line of defense, and are almost always out of range of timely assistance.
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Old July 20 2013, 11:37 AM   #30
Timo
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Re: Klingon Neutral Zone

On the other hand, fleeing in real life is a perfectly valid combat maneuver, and often key to victory and control of the seas.

German surface assets in WWII typically had standing orders to flee, making them far more formidable threats than if they actually engaged enemy warships. Fleeing made them invincible, allowing them to remain a potent threat to shipping. They, too, were "out of range of timely assistance".

French fleets at the height of the age of sail were famous for their ability to flee, too. Their agile ships and excellent training on last-minute escape maneuvers gave them a massive strategic advantage, as the British or, say, the Dutch could never challenge a French formation to a decisive battle - so their amassing a fleet of decisive strength would have been in vain, making them vulnerable on all other fronts and weakening their hold of their respective empires. In contrast, the French fleets could maneuver at will and, thanks to the lack of means of locating ships at sea, strike with decisive strength against various overseas assets, another situation paralleling Trek.

If Starfleet only operates a dozen ships of Enterprise caliber, at least on the frontier, it might be vital to drill their skippers in the art of tactical and strategic fleeing, thereby multiplying their power.

We can rest assured, though, that the simulation would catch the cadet coming and going. Fleeing would no doubt be rigged to lead to destruction as well.

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