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Old July 19 2013, 04:42 PM   #46
Pavonis
Commodore
 
Re: Latinum is better tha gold because...

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Pavonis wrote: View Post
why wouldn't they replicate the elements and/or compounds that compose the "beta-matrix compositor" and build it by hand from scratch?
Because the particular materials necessary to the construction of the "compositor" can not be replicated, they need to be acquired from natural sources.

Embrace the obvious.
It's not at all obvious, though. The finished product couldn't be replicated as a whole, so the next best thing as far as O'Brien was concerned was to go scavenge one. There was no mention of building one from scratch. Why not? Is it simply a time issue? Replicating one would take seconds, scavenging one would take a day, but building one might take a month. I don't know, but there's no reason to jump to the conclusion that it's impossible to replicate the materials to construct a "beta-matrix compositor".

T'Girl wrote: View Post
It was the sample that became unstable when they tried to replicate it.
The sample worked fine as an injection (and, gosh, I would hope it would, else it would be completely useless), but "it" becomes unstable when replicated. I took "it" to be a reference to the replicated vaccine - the stuff that comes out of the replicator falls apart. You take "it" to mean a reference to the original vaccine specimen. Maybe it is, but Crusher's words are ambiguous.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Strictly speaking, it was replicated
Strickly speaking it was grown, this is make clear in the dialog.

The point I'm making Pavonis is the the device that grew Worf's new spine wasn't the machine known as "The Replicator." It didn't rearrange material within a matter stream, but rather grew an organic bone structure, which isn't how a replicator works. At least not as stated.

You need to want to watch the episode.
It was called a "genetronic replicator". Why put "replicator" in the name if replication is an unrelated technology? It's not clear to me that only matter-energy conversion is involved in replication.

Perhaps the genetronic replicator is a hybrid of cloning-related technology and replicators. It uses DNA-based generators, reads the DNA of damaged tissue and converts it to replicator instructions - that's explicit in the dialogue. Growth of the tissue is involved, too, but the growth is apparently enabled by the replicator. But, I'll concede that maybe the "replicator" part of the "genetronic replicator" is a literal use of the word "replica", as a euphemism for "clone", which may be a taboo word in the Federation (what with their hesitation to do much with genetic engineering even centuries after the Eugenics Wars).
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Old July 19 2013, 05:25 PM   #47
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Latinum is better tha gold because...

Could I suggest that trying to understand why something is unreplicatable is chasing a wild goose? Instead, I think it should be a question of whether or not replicator technology is intended to be perfect. What is produced might usually be adequate, but flawed or imprecise when compared to the real thing. You may ask for a Stradivarius, but you'll get a violin.
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Old July 19 2013, 06:10 PM   #48
Data's Cat
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Re: Latinum is better tha gold because...

T'Girl wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
You want my advice? Buy latinum! Buy buy BUY!
According to Tom Paris, gold is going to be valued at over 5,600 dollars a troy ounce by the late twenty second century. Think of your descendants, buy gold.

By the late 22nd century, $5600 won't be worth much. Inflation, yanno.
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Old July 19 2013, 06:20 PM   #49
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Latinum is better tha gold because...

Even if there is some ambiguity about the replication of Worf's spine in "Ethics", there is none about the replication of Ptera's brain stem neural tissue in "Emanations".

EMH: "It's a simple process, really. She died of a cancerous growth on the brain stem. I removed the tumor, replicated new neural tissue and used the standard Starfleet postmortem resuscitation technique for a Class 5 life form."
Whether the EMH is making use of the now-perfected technique of Dr. Russell, or some other technique, we don't know. But the good holo-Doctor doesn't have access to the sort of special instrumentation Russel brought aboard, and he still says he replicated neural tissue - whereas there are no references in Star Trek to it being impossible to replicate living tissue. (It's merely difficult, as evidenced by the slow progress in Russell's technique, and by the fact that Tal'Shiar wasn't able to create perfect fake blood in "Data's Day" despite no doubt desiring to do so.)

Timo Saloniemi
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Old July 19 2013, 06:24 PM   #50
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Latinum is better tha gold because...

Timo wrote: View Post
Even if there is some ambiguity about the replication of Worf's spine in "Ethics", there is none about the replication of Ptera's brain stem neural tissue in "Emanations".

EMH: "It's a simple process, really. She died of a cancerous growth on the brain stem. I removed the tumor, replicated new neural tissue and used the standard Starfleet postmortem resuscitation technique for a Class 5 life form."
Whether the EMH is making use of the now-perfected technique of Dr. Russell, or some other technique, we don't know. But the good holo-Doctor doesn't have access to the sort of special instrumentation Russel brought aboard, and he still says he replicated neural tissue - whereas there are no references in Star Trek to it being impossible to replicate living tissue. (It's merely difficult, as evidenced by the slow progress in Russell's technique, and by the fact that Tal'Shiar wasn't able to create perfect fake blood in "Data's Day" despite no doubt desiring to do so.)

Timo Saloniemi
However, he does not replicate an entirely new brain stem, does he?
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Old July 19 2013, 06:34 PM   #51
Pavonis
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Re: Latinum is better tha gold because...

He didn't need to replace the brain stem, just remove the cancerous growth.
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Old July 19 2013, 06:45 PM   #52
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Latinum is better tha gold because...

Pavonis wrote: View Post
He didn't need to replace the brain stem, just the cancerous growth.
Which is why the example is problematic: the general neural tissue might not need to operate in the same manner as a new set of lungs, but in the presence of an otherwise healthy brainstem, may, through grafting, mimic its function.

I also should point out that not all uses of the word "replicate" should be understood as "used a replicator." The word has its own meaning.
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Old July 19 2013, 07:09 PM   #53
Timo
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Re: Latinum is better tha gold because...

However, he does not replicate an entirely new brain stem, does he?
He replicates entirely new neural tissue. Whether this represents 5% of the brain stem, or 95%... Why should it matter?

I also should point out that not all uses of the word "replicate" should be understood as "used a replicator." The word has its own meaning.
It's quite noteworthy that in the one ambiguous case, that of "Ethics", the process of replication still consists of making something out of nothing in front of the eyes of the audience, while having the thing glimmer and sparkle. "Replication" in Trek seems to mean one and the same thing even when we might expect it not to.

That doesn't necessarily mean that even the food replicator should be utilizing only one type of process or gizmo. Quite possibly, there's a whole factory inside, with multiple fascinating techniques in use, and with just the end product finally materializing via the help of basic transporter technology.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old July 19 2013, 08:19 PM   #54
Phily B
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Re: Latinum is better tha gold because...

Gold just isn't rare to a sufficiently technologically advanced race.

Or the fact it might not be that rare, most of the gold on Earth is unaccessible with current techniques and there is a lot of gold in asteroids.
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