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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old July 19 2013, 04:52 PM   #31
Mario de Monti
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Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Though I think Spock's comment is about Nazi ideology, not Germans.
Absolutely, I never understood it any other way.

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
Representing the German past is a fraught subject with strong emotions. Nonetheless, German culture many opportunities to discuss the memories of Nazism and the Holocaust, moreso than, for instance, French imperialism, British rule in Ireland, or even Germany's genocidal war against the Herero. Indeed, the US has a national museum for the Holocaust, but not one for slavery and its legacy.
Interesting. So it seems to be not just a national/German wish to keep dealing with this part of history.

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On the other hand, isn't it possible that our differences on the subject of this line may have more to do with differing notions of humor among the various cultures?
Theoretically, yes. But like I said before, I don´t usually have a problem with jokes/humor about Germans or Nazis and I can definitely laugh about myself, too. It just seems to be this instance in POF, where I can´t seem to find the humorous notion implied.

Mario
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Old July 19 2013, 05:03 PM   #32
Nerys Myk
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Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

Spock implication is that Kirk looks like the Nazi ideal.
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Old July 19 2013, 05:11 PM   #33
Mario de Monti
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Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Spock implication is that Kirk looks like the Nazi ideal.
That is something I could live with. It would also explain Kirk´s somewhat ... irritated ... reaction to Spock´s remark
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Old July 19 2013, 05:16 PM   #34
Bad Thoughts
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Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

Theoretically, yes. But like I said before, I don´t usually have a problem with jokes/humor about Germans or Nazis and I can definitely laugh about myself, too. It just seems to be this instance in POF, where I can´t seem to find the humorous notion implied.
Hopefully, you won't mind if I give a little chuckle (though just a little one--there's isn't much too the joke).
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Old July 19 2013, 05:21 PM   #35
Mario de Monti
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Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
Theoretically, yes. But like I said before, I don´t usually have a problem with jokes/humor about Germans or Nazis and I can definitely laugh about myself, too. It just seems to be this instance in POF, where I can´t seem to find the humorous notion implied.
Hopefully, you won't mind if I give a little chuckle (though just a little one--there's isn't much too the joke).
By no means. It would be terribly boring if everyone would laugh about the exact same things - or like the exact same things
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Old July 19 2013, 05:26 PM   #36
Nerys Myk
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Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Spock implication is that Kirk looks like the Nazi ideal.
That is something I could live with. It would also explain Kirk´s somewhat ... irritated ... reaction to Spock´s remark
And that's where the humor lies.
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Old July 19 2013, 06:06 PM   #37
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Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
In Germany, many aspects of our Nazi past are being "taboo-ized" to sometimes ridiculous degrees.
Ridiculous, indeed. With that kind of "politically correct" pressure, I can see how Germans would find it hard to laugh at Spock's joke. That is, your failure to see the "comic relief" in an otherwise grim episode is not because of what happened back then, but because of what is happening now. (Is it really over, or has it taken a new form?)

But many people are weird—those having nothing to do with persecutions that happened so long ago have no reason to feel guilty about it today, and people who did not suffer such persecutions should not be demanding reparations from those who had nothing to do with it.

We should never forget the past, but that doesn't mean we should keep living it over and over.
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Old July 19 2013, 06:25 PM   #38
Grant
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Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

Melakon wrote: View Post
I saw some of those comments suggesting it was funny because Shatner and Nimoy are Jewish. Only Spock knows what he was thinking when he said it, but I think it was more his attempt to make a joke (at Kirk's expense), rather than a wink to the audience.

I can understand why some people might think it's some sort of inside joke. Performers like Mel Brooks, Jack Benny, Charles Chaplin, and even the Three Stooges took pokes at Nazis in their films. But I don't think that's the case with "Patterns of Force". For the record, I am not a Zeon pig.

I agree, I think it was an attempt at humor by Spock--perhaps commenting on Kirk's leadership role on the ship.
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Old July 19 2013, 08:09 PM   #39
Timo
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Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

"You should make a very convincing slave trader". Would you take that as a joke too?
While slavery and Nazism might be close to the hearts of some of us, they appear to be nicely distanced from the reality in which our TOS heroes live. A joke about whether the main hero would make for a convincing slave trader or not was part of the very first Star Trek pilot episode!

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Old July 19 2013, 08:38 PM   #40
Warped9
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Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

A lot of everyday humour can be flavoured by dark parts of our psyche, our cultures and our history. People make jokes all the time that some (including ourselves) might find distasteful and yet we laugh anyway.
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Old July 19 2013, 09:03 PM   #41
YJAGG
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Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

I'd ask shatner next month but I doubt that he remembers
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Old July 19 2013, 09:36 PM   #42
scotpens
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Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

Timo wrote: View Post
. . . A joke about whether the main hero would make for a convincing slave trader or not was part of the very first Star Trek pilot episode!
True, but with the difference being that Spock's offhand remark was about Kirk's ability to pass himself off as a Nazi, while Dr. Boyce was asking whether Capt. Pike could really see himself as an Orion trader dealing in slaves.
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Old July 19 2013, 11:13 PM   #43
Timo
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Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

...And the joke is on Pike, because the answer is, yes, he could. And will.

It's a funny picture of a hero that "The Cage" paints. First, the skipper receives an SOS and tells his crew to ignore it, then goes to bed! The very next thing, he considers resigning! And then we learn that he dreams of horses, hellfire and being a slave trader...

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Old July 19 2013, 11:54 PM   #44
Mister Atoz
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Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

Mario, I am American born but just got back from Germany last month. I understand your sensitivity to the possibly offensive humor in the ep. The WHOLE episode is a kind of a joke since television doesn't provide an adequate budget to depict the large crowds necessary to create the atmosphere of a "Nazi" planet. There just weren't enough extras, and the whole episode trucks in almost pure cliche. It's all so silly, humor just naturally bubbles to the surface. This is the reason why a large number of fans find Patterns of Force "corny" and insincere. You just can't take such a serious subject as Nazism and turn it into a plastic screenplay for a television episode. It is easy to understand why this episode was not shown in Germany for decades.

I am constrained to point out that other Trek episodes offend specific parties. For example, Shatner joking in "City on the Edge of Forever" that "My friend is obviously Chinese". Or in Turnabout Intruder when Kirk says that captain isn't a position that Janice Lester "merits by temperament or training." Turnabout Intruder is a total turnoff to women, I know that. And I know that "Elan of Troyius" is highly offensive to some Asian women. And of course if I was a Vulcan, I would indeed find the entire series highly offensive, since both Kirk and McCoy are constantly taking racist jabs at Spock.

~ Mr Atoz
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Old July 20 2013, 01:06 AM   #45
ZapBrannigan
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Re: A question regarding "Patterns of Force"

Years ago (circa 2000) on another bboard, a German guy informed us that Star Trek, the whole series, was originally syndicated in Germany with a phony translation of the dialog. He said it made the episodes juvenile and often quite silly, and adults did not understand how the show could be playing to grown-ups in America.

Then sometime around the late 1980s or 90s, I don't know when, Germany finally got an honest translation of the show and viewers were quite surprised. The film series apparently motivated the revamping of Germany's syndication version.

I can't really vouch for this story but it was from a credible source at the time, a well-respected poster.
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