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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old July 14 2013, 12:09 AM   #61
Santa Kang
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
And in both Khan is nothing more than a Bwahaha villain. There are no real questions asked or answers given.
I think you're right that answers aren't given and that a lot of it is a vehicle for the action, but I disagree that there weren't questions asked or at least ideas presented in a way that you might think about them. I didn't get any of that from Khan's situation in STID. And don't get me wrong, I thought this movie gave a lot more to think about than most of the other Star Trek movies, it's just that none of it really had to do with Khan, which was surprising to me given some of the fantastic things surrounding him.
In both Space Seed and ID, Khan is almost sympathetic, until he goes "full augment". We feel for him because he's being blackmailed and used as a weapon by Marcus. We can see why, in another Universe Scotty, (and Kirk) might admire him. Of course, Marcus underestimated Khan and Kirk falls for some of Khan's rhetoric, and that goes back to theme of superior man and superior ambition.
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Old July 14 2013, 02:21 AM   #62
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
I think if you're going to use Khan, then actually make use of Khan.

With 2 of the 3 of them saying Khan will return in a more Khan-centric movie, you will likely get that which you ask for, but do not actually want.
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Old July 14 2013, 12:47 PM   #63
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

They already messed him up the last time. Let's move beyond villains seeking vengeance and see something different.
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Old July 14 2013, 03:38 PM   #64
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

thumbtack wrote: View Post
Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
I think if you're going to use Khan, then actually make use of Khan.

With 2 of the 3 of them saying Khan will return in a more Khan-centric movie, you will likely get that which you ask for, but do not actually want.
You don't actually know one thing about I want, which is typical.
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Old July 14 2013, 04:32 PM   #65
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

That's what she said.
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Old July 14 2013, 10:19 PM   #66
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

There were still earlier controversies, such as Laurence Olivier playing Othello in a 1960s film, and Peter Ustinov as Charlie Chan in the 1980s. Of course, Hollywood used to let Caucasians play other races in important roles (e.g., Lost Horizon, The Good Earth), but they were supposed to have moved beyond that at some point.
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Old July 16 2013, 07:10 PM   #67
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
To be fair, though, Montalban himself was screwed out of the role of Mike Vargas by Charlton Heston in Touch of Evil; a Mexican born actor was denied the chance to play the role of a Mexican man, and it was played by some white guy.
Ricard Montalban may have been Mexican by birth but he was every bit as white as Heston. Both of his parents were born and raised in Spain and immigrated to Mexico before he was born. The only diff between Montalban and Heston was the authenticity of their accents.
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Old July 17 2013, 11:40 PM   #68
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
In both Space Seed and ID, Khan is almost sympathetic, until he goes "full augment". We feel for him because he's being blackmailed and used as a weapon by Marcus. We can see why, in another Universe Scotty, (and Kirk) might admire him. Of course, Marcus underestimated Khan and Kirk falls for some of Khan's rhetoric, and that goes back to theme of superior man and superior ambition.
Coming back to this for a minute, it's interesting to read Orci's comments about this in the talkback at trekmovie: http://trekmovie.com/2013/06/24/stic...ssion/#5132886

Essentially, the story works, in my opinion, no matter what his names is. The story is about a unique individual who was blackmailed and used by an Admiral whose fear lead him to make plans for preemptive war against possible threats. The unique individual rebels, and targets the folk and the organization who has tried to use him.
Right there he says that the story is about just that the individual is unique. It wasn't the genetic engineering that defined the character, it could have been any particular characteristic as long as the character was unique. That's part of my issue of why Khan isn't defined enough.

I think the main story that he talks about there is a good one and that he's right in that it did not need Khan. I think adding Khan in as a sort of canon window dressing just isn't that great and I'd prefer that they wrote a story that was tailored to fit him if they have to use him. I'd say they could do that for the 3rd movie, but I think they might have already missed a lot of their opportunity.
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Old July 18 2013, 02:53 AM   #69
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Truth be told, I would have preferred Harrison not be Khan.
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Old July 19 2013, 08:35 AM   #70
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Ok, not "anybody" as in a "normal guy" as you say, but the role wasn't initially written as Khan, and that's enough to know that it wasn't necessary for it to be Khan. Adding in a bunch of stuff like the Worf Effect was just superficial trimmings to fit Khan, not elements that were pivotal to the story. Were it someone else, the story would've accommodated them. This isn't that hard to see.
So basically instead of Khan, you want yet another Khan ripoff?
Nothing in what Cumberbatch does in STD reminds me of Khan, so I never get that argument. When was Khan ever able to beat a bunch of Klingons to a pulp, shrug off phaser blasts, resist Vulcan nerve pinches and have healing blood?
KhanPrime was never in the same room with the Klingons, so we wouldn't really know. Likewise, we never saw anyone try to shoot him with a phaser either (we did see him crush a phaser with his bare hands, of course).

Seriously, nobody would even THINK about shouting "Khan Ripoff!" if the guy was just called "John Harrison, enhanced secret agent".
Very true... at least, until Harrison started getting all weepy about his (for some reason cryogenically frozen) fellow supersoldiers, at which point most of us would pull a collective "Hey, wait a minute..."

Make Harrison a human-alien hybrid to explain his abilities and there's NOTHING left of Khan.
When has this ever NOT been true of Khan? Hell, even the connection in Wrath of Khan was pretty thin; you could have inserted any random Klingon warlord we've never heard of and have him blaming Kirk for some other equally random shit he derangedly thinks Kirk did to him (killed his brother on Organia? Humiliated him at Troyus? Whatever) and it would be basically the same movie.

Come to think of it... with some VERY minor tweaks, Khan and Kruge are almost interchangeable characters. You'd have to insert fifteen seconds of dialog to explain how Khan got his hands on a Romulan bird of prey (about as much as time as Harrison spent explaining how Marcus found his ship) and replace the word "Klingons" with "superior" and then you're basically good to go.

Let's be honest with ourselves: Khan wasn't special or memorable as a character. Khan was special and memorable because Ricardo Montalban was a phenomenal actor.

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Right there he says that the story is about just that the individual is unique. It wasn't the genetic engineering that defined the character...
And strictly speaking, it never WAS. What defined Khan's character was two things:

1) A human being who is effectively super-human, who was CREATED to be super-human, whose belief in his superiority is indeed justified (which is scary enough) and thus becomes the justification for an unbroken string of atrocities.

2) An evil genius who cleverly manipulates others into giving him the advantage and then mercilessly slits their throats (and/or crushes their skulls) when that advantage manifests.

IOW, Khan is a murdering psychopath with allusions of grandeur. He was never really that much more than that, and never would have been in the hands of a less talented actor.

I think the main story that he talks about there is a good one and that he's right in that it did not need Khan. I think adding Khan in as a sort of canon window dressing just isn't that great and I'd prefer that they wrote a story that was tailored to fit him if they have to use him.
But that would involve quite a bit more character development than we have ever seen from Khan before. Apart from the Pimping of McGyvers, Khan actually had less character development in TOS than Kor, and FAR less of a reason to get his own movie (except that maybe "The Wrath of Kor" isn't quite as catchy a title).

Besides, with all the abilities hinted at but never seen in TOS, this movie did a lot more for Khan's characterization than Khan did for the STID.
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