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Old July 17 2013, 05:31 AM   #91
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

I'll leave it with this: in Yesterday's Enterprise, is Tasha Yar still alive and Deanna Troi not present. Did you never wonder exactly why that was?

It's because Armus killed her.
More broadly, it's because in the prime universe Riker tells Armus "We believe that all intelligent life has a right to exist," which Armus -- being the sociopath that he is -- immediately latches onto as a sign of weakness. In the alternate timeline, Starfleet does not hold to this belief; they'd deal with Armus along very different terms, and Armus would really have only one way to get under their skin: torture Deanna to death, spit out her mutilated corpse, and then laugh and taunt them when they find out their phasers don't hurt him. That change in ethos isn't just a minor detail like a uniform change or a willingness to pull a weapon. The basic assumptions behind all of their decision-making would be different, their basic priorities would be different, even things so small as the default setting on a security officer's hand phaser (is it stun or kill?).

I think you are fundamentally underestimating the basic implications of a militarized Starfleet when you assume that a simple mission change is all it would take. It would become an ENTIRELY different type of organization with entirely different procedures and practices. Those types of changes do not happen casually, nor are they easy to undo when the fighting's over; indeed, this is an issue that Trek itself actually touched upon in "The Hunted." It's easy to transform a peaceful man into a soldier, but it's not nearly as easy to turn a soldier into a peaceful man.


I'm not going to belabor the point any more because I honestly don't think you're capable of discussing the subject honestly. I think you're disagreeing just to be disagreeable -- again -- and I don't feel like going through this with you a second time.
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Old July 17 2013, 01:59 PM   #92
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
If there were separate DS9 Starfleet Military guys you would think we would've seen them in the ground combat scenarios?
No.
Because since all of the main characters are Starfleet, the only time we ever see ground combat is when Starfleet is sent to do it. Which is, apparently, an INCREDIBLY rare occurrence.
But I could ask the same question: If the Andorians are still members of the Federation, you would think we would've seen them... EVER?
Like I said, the two absences are probably related.
Yes, our window into the Trek-verse is much smaller than most folks realize. This is why we don't see the army, marines, or ground combat much. And the writers simply failed to use Andorians lately.

And if we're going on the military ranks of the MACOs which consisted of ground forces-type ranks then Colonel West of Starfleet would equate to the Military.
That or Colonel West is the MACO liaison to Starfleet. It would explain why he is one of exactly two Starfleet officers we have ever seen to ever be referred to by that rank (the other being Kira Nerys, who served on DS9 in a similar capacity between Starfleet and the Bajoran Military).
I'm not sure the two are unrelated. Starfleet, after all, is dominated by humans; it's likely, based on what we know of the Federation, that MACO is dominated by Andorians.
Unfounded speculation. Colonel West can be argued to have an honorary title, based on wearing admiral's rank. More likely, based on his name, he was supposed to be a marine, but the costumers messed up.

But it doesn't appear they actually tested it with drones at all, in fact by all accounts this was the first time M5 had ever been used in the field.
My basic point is that a military organization wouldn't take five of its ships away from their patrol duties for an experiment like this unless all five of those ships were also testing some vital new system and/or training their crews in some specific scenario, as the Navy does with the Top Gun school and the Air Force does with Red Flag. It's almost unheard of, in those cases, for an entire squadron to be pulled off of active duty JUST to run mock engagements against a UAV or to test a new weapon system.
IOW, military readiness precludes that level of advanced field testing; M5 would have had his first trials in a Starfleet proving ground, probably retrofitted to a training vessel or a smaller starship that was not scheduled for deployment in the immediate future. The "wargames" would have occurred later, with a fully-tested and fully-operational M5 unit that had already demonstrated basic operational capacity in the proving ground, in which case it wouldn't be a test of the M5 so much as a genuine war game to see how the M5 would perform under more realistic wartime conditions.
Except that you're expecting the writer to know that.

If your point was more specific to periods of peace time then I wouldn't be debating you However since you lump the entirety of Starfleet's existence into a non-military organization then that's where you took it too broadly.
I doubt it even makes a difference. You, like many people, assume that ONLY a military organization could participate in combat or a full-scale (declared or otherwise) war, and that Starfleet would not have participated unless the declaration of its new status had been made.
This assumption has no factual support, though, and is already contradicted by real-world historical precedent as well as the in-universe precedent established by Earth Starfleet a century earlier. Starfleet need not be codified as a military organization to act in that role, especially if such precedent already exists in interstellar law (which it obviously does, given that many races -- the Vulcans, for example -- do not overtly differentiate between their armed and unarmed services).
Basically, organizations do not casually "go military" and then just as casually cease to be the military just because of politics at the time. Starfleet swings back and forth between being more or less militaristic, to be sure, but "the military" is a legal as well as political definition and is not an institutional label that can be assigned temporarily or conveniently.[/quote] Yeah, when NASA and NOAA are the lead elements in our next war, I'll buy this. Until then, I'm going to follow Occam's razor in thinking that a militarily-organized entity, with military discipline, ranks, and regulations, which performs military missions, and has never been seen to do anything that has not historically been a military mission, is a military, not a quasi-mystical pseudo-peaceful exploration agency that can sometimes fight.

It's a bit like "the police." The neighborhood watch is NOT a police force despite the fact that they often work with the police to help solve crimes and keep neighborhoods safe. In the event of a riot, the neighborhood watch may go out in force to protect their neighborhoods and help police officers keep track of what's going on, and the police may even deputize the neighborhood watch en masse to help stem the violence. But even deputized, the neighborhood watch never BECOMES a police force; before, during and after the riots they have no legal standing as peace officers, despite their temporary operational mandate to assist in the enforcement of the law.
flawed and incorrect argument. If deputized, they certainly do become a police force under the law.

What I meant by "becoming military" would be a fundamental shift in Starfleet's basic priorities by a legislative act of the Federation council, granting Starfleet a wider range of defense responsibilities and privileges, not least of which is the capacity to directly protect military secrets. This is a capacity that Starfleet does not actually have, as we learn in "The Drumhead", and can be inferred from from TOS through DS9 that the concept of "classified technology" isn't one Starfleet actually maintains beyond a very strong and logical preference NOT to let enemy governments access their technology. Moreover, the militarization of Starfleet wouldn't just change their legal powers and authorities, it would have to establish a new set of regulations and directives that would amend Starfleet's charter and altering its mission statement to:
"To maintain, train and equip combat-ready Starfleet forces capable of winning wars, deterring aggression and maintaining freedom of space."
Bushwa! Writer fails do not make that claim true, and if Starfleet doesn't already have those missions in it's charter, then it's been performing illegal missions since the beginning.
It would, in other words, be the redefinition under Federation law of what Starfleet actually is. They would cease to be an exploration agency; they would never be an exploration agency again. They might still do some exploring, they might still conduct scientific research, but that would no longer be their PURPOSE or their priority or even their way of doing business.
None of this is true. Until the 20th century, the military was the primary exploration agency, followed by merchants. There was no "exploration agency" of the kind you imagine.

When Starfleet in "Wrath of Khan" is referred to as "The Military"
And referred to incorrectly by an impulsive brat with daddy issues. We've been over this before.[/QUOTE] Your false interpretation to suit your irrational prejudice. Also, Carol cetainly saw Starfleet as the military, so that right there throws out your "brat" idea.
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Old July 17 2013, 02:04 PM   #93
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I'll leave it with this: in Yesterday's Enterprise, is Tasha Yar still alive and Deanna Troi not present. Did you never wonder exactly why that was?
It's because Armus killed her.
More broadly, it's because in the prime universe Riker tells Armus "We believe that all intelligent life has a right to exist," which Armus -- being the sociopath that he is -- immediately latches onto as a sign of weakness. In the alternate timeline, Starfleet does not hold to this belief; they'd deal with Armus along very different terms, and Armus would really have only one way to get under their skin: torture Deanna to death, spit out her mutilated corpse, and then laugh and taunt them when they find out their phasers don't hurt him. That change in ethos isn't just a minor detail like a uniform change or a willingness to pull a weapon. The basic assumptions behind all of their decision-making would be different, their basic priorities would be different, even things so small as the default setting on a security officer's hand phaser (is it stun or kill?).
Interesting idea. Personally, I just figured this universe's Starfleet didn't get so touchy-feely that they had counselors on the senior staff. We might have just never seen LTjg Troi, toiling away down in Sickbay. Or she might never have been posted to a battleship in the first place.

I think you are fundamentally underestimating the basic implications of a militarized Starfleet when you assume that a simple mission change is all it would take. It would become an ENTIRELY different type of organization with entirely different procedures and practices. Those types of changes do not happen casually, nor are they easy to undo when the fighting's over; indeed, this is an issue that Trek itself actually touched upon in "The Hunted." It's easy to transform a peaceful man into a soldier, but it's not nearly as easy to turn a soldier into a peaceful man.
Aside from special condition to make super-soldiers, you grossly OVER-estimate the difference.
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Old July 17 2013, 03:22 PM   #94
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
If there were separate DS9 Starfleet Military guys you would think we would've seen them in the ground combat scenarios?
No.

Because since all of the main characters are Starfleet, the only time we ever see ground combat is when Starfleet is sent to do it. Which is, apparently, an INCREDIBLY rare occurrence.
You must've missed out on most of DS9 then. "Battle of AR-558" and the deployment of Starfleet forces to protect the streets of Earth in "Paradise Lost" would indicate Starfleet does also ground combat.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
But I could ask the same question: If the Andorians are still members of the Federation, you would think we would've seen them... EVER?
The Andorians got 13 mentions in DS9.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Like I said, the two absences are probably related.
Doubtful. You're assuming that the Andorians would become the core of the ground forces which may not have been the case.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
And if we're going on the military ranks of the MACOs which consisted of ground forces-type ranks then Colonel West of Starfleet would equate to the Military.
That or Colonel West is the MACO liaison to Starfleet. It would explain why he is one of exactly two Starfleet officers we have ever seen to ever be referred to by that rank (the other being Kira Nerys, who served on DS9 in a similar capacity between Starfleet and the Bajoran Military).
Kira always wore her Bajoran military uniform. Colonel West wore a Starfleet uniform. He would not be a liaison and again it corresponds to the TOS timeframe that Starfleet was a Military.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I'm not sure the two are unrelated. Starfleet, after all, is dominated by humans; it's likely, based on what we know of the Federation, that MACO is dominated by Andorians.
We do not know if Andorians decided to join the MACOs or if the MACOs even continued to exist after the formation of the Federation or was integrated into Starfleet.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
My basic point is that a military organization wouldn't take five of its ships away from their patrol duties for an experiment like this unless all five of those ships were also testing some vital new system and/or training their crews in some specific scenario, as the Navy does with the Top Gun school and the Air Force does with Red Flag. It's almost unheard of, in those cases, for an entire squadron to be pulled off of active duty JUST to run mock engagements against a UAV or to test a new weapon system.
Top Gun/Red Flag are fighter training schools that need to have aircraft in a controlled location to train.

Navy wargames like the one the M5 did involve many units that train on location, often front-line. See the recent US-South Korean wargames.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
If your point was more specific to periods of peace time then I wouldn't be debating you However since you lump the entirety of Starfleet's existence into a non-military organization then that's where you took it too broadly.
I doubt it even makes a difference. You, like many people, assume that ONLY a military organization could participate in combat or a full-scale (declared or otherwise) war, and that Starfleet would not have participated unless the declaration of its new status had been made.
I'm just pointing out what the dialogue and characters at their respective times have described Starfleet as. Your evidence that Starfleet is not military in TNG's and ENT's time rests also on dialogue. TOS and TOS Movies say Starfleet was a Military. It has nothing to do with assumptions but evidence as presented.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
When Starfleet in "Wrath of Khan" is referred to as "The Military"
And referred to incorrectly by an impulsive brat with daddy issues. We've been over this before.
And confirmed by Carol Marcus who is the actual person that called Starfleet, "The Military". Yes, we've been over this before
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Old July 17 2013, 03:39 PM   #95
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I'll leave it with this: in Yesterday's Enterprise, is Tasha Yar still alive and Deanna Troi not present. Did you never wonder exactly why that was?
Since we do not know either way Troi's fate we can simply say she wasn't assigned to the ship at that time or fate unknown.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I think you are fundamentally underestimating the basic implications of a militarized Starfleet when you assume that a simple mission change is all it would take. It would become an ENTIRELY different type of organization with entirely different procedures and practices.
Yeah, and it would look just like the Starfleet of TOS and TOS Movies.


Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I'm not going to belabor the point any more because I honestly don't think you're capable of discussing the subject honestly. I think you're disagreeing just to be disagreeable -- again -- and I don't feel like going through this with you a second time.
Food for thought: If you need to discredit evidence like actual character dialogue in order to get your argument to work then your argument is flawed and needs reworking.
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Old July 19 2013, 08:07 AM   #96
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Food for thought: If you need to discredit evidence like actual character dialogue in order to get your argument to work...
At 2:21 seconds, you may want to take your own advice.
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Old July 19 2013, 10:28 PM   #97
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Food for thought: If you need to discredit evidence like actual character dialogue in order to get your argument to work...
At 2:21 seconds, you may want to take your own advice.
Please quote where I attempt to discredit Picard's dialogue the way you've been desperately trying to do with David Marcus or any of the other characters.
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Old July 20 2013, 05:59 PM   #98
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
At 2:21 seconds, you may want to take your own advice.
Captain's log, Stardate 42923.4. Despite misgivings, I have agreed to Starfleet's request that the Enterprise divert to the Braslota System, to take part in a war game exercise.

When your superiors within an organization make a "request," it is in fact an order.

Kolrami: "Captain Picard, it is my understanding that you initially resisted Starfleet's request for this simulation."
Picard: "Yes."
Kolrami: "May I know why?"
Picard: "Starfleet is not a military organisation."


Picad equates engaging in a war game exercise with Starfleet being a military organization. But Starfleet Command ordered him to engage in the war game.

Kolrami: "Captain. I bring greetings from those at Starfleet Command."

Captain Picard may not believe that Starfleet is a military organization, but apparently the people he works for do.

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Old July 21 2013, 05:24 AM   #99
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
When your superiors within an organization make a "request," it is in fact an order.
That's not even true in real-world militaries. What makes you think that would be true of Starfleet?

Picad equates engaging in a war game exercise with Starfleet being a military organization. But Starfleet Command ordered him to engage in the war game.
No they didn't. They REQUESTED he participate in the exercise, a request that Picard initially refused and only recently changed his mind. In fact, it's not even clear how long ago the request was made; Picard claims the only reason he agreed to it is because of the Borg threat, which suggests Starfleet made the request -- and Picard declined to participate -- several months ago, even before the events in Q-Who.

Captain Picard may not believe that Starfleet is a military organization, but apparently the people he works for do.
That raises an interesting point: they made it a REQUEST, not an order. Picard only accepted it because of the urgent nature of the Borg threat (the same reason the Defiant was originally built). If the Enterprise had never encountered the Borg, Picard never would have gone to Braslota in the first place.

That is, unless you would prefer to argue on the basis that Picard is a lying idealistic anti-military flower child.
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Old July 21 2013, 05:49 AM   #100
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Eddie, in the military, there is no such thing as a request. Orders are sometimes framed as requests, but that's just being nice to subordinates. You would know this if you'd served, but anyone who's served would also have scorn for the "non-military" starfleet idea.
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Old July 21 2013, 09:07 AM   #101
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Darkwing wrote: View Post
Eddie, in the military, there is no such thing as a request.
That's kinda my point, wing. Orders are orders, and officers obey the chain of command as a matter of course. Of the very few circumstances in which an officer may receive a "request" from his or her superiors, those are NEVER confused with orders.

Orders may be phrased as requests, but only in the sense of "Flight is requesting another update on V103's engine trouble" which is just another way of saying "call the boss again."

Picard's choice of words is relevant here: he agrees to that request, and he tells Kolrami the same thing in the conference. Starfleet, therefore, gave him a choice. This isn't something you see a lot (hardly ever) in military organizations, but it's something you see a whole hell of a lot in police departments, private security companies and paramilitary organizations. Although, in fairness, in the military it most often occurs when a particular unit (say, a Coast Guard vessel) is being asked by a civilian organization (say, Chicago Tallships) to participate in some kind of public relations stunt. In Picard's case, it's significant that Kolrami is not actually a Starfleet officer and doesn't appear to be a ranking official in the Federation government either.

You would know this if you'd served
Which I did, which to a small extent is part of the reason I find the concept of Starfleet as a military organization kind of laughable. They remind me of a bunch of cub scouts imitating a submarine movie: no readbacks, little discipline, not much decorum. You can tell what they're TRYING to be, but they're clearly not.

That, however, is not something I can't defend intellectually because it's a perception issue and COULD be unique to my own experiences: excepting a handful of TOS episodes, the only thing Starfleet seems to have in common with any branch of the U.S. military is that they carry weapons. And that's about it.

Having guns does not a military make.

anyone who's served would also have scorn for the "non-military" starfleet idea.
Why? Is the Army Astronaut program really that popular with the kids?
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Old July 21 2013, 08:38 PM   #102
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Picard's choice of words is relevant here: he agrees to that request, and he tells Kolrami the same thing in the conference. Starfleet, therefore, gave him a choice.
According to him. But we know from the preponderance of evidence on the show that if he hadn't agreed, Starfleet Command could have ordered him to do it, did order him to undertake military missions on other occasions, and could have relieved him from duty if he had refused the orders. So his "agreeing" doesn't mean much.
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Old July 21 2013, 10:47 PM   #103
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

This is dialog from The Immunity Syndrome.

Kirk: "Kirk here. Go ahead."
Starfleet: "You will divert immediately to sector three nine J."
Kirk: " Sir, the Enterprise just completed an exhausting mission. We're on our way in for R and R. There must be another starship in that sector."
Starfleet: "Negative. This is a rescue priority. We've lost all contact with solar system Gamma Seven-A, which the Intrepid was investigating. And we've just lost contact with the Intrepid. Report progress."
Kirk: "Order acknowledged. Kirk out. Mister Kyle, you heard the order. Set course for Gamma Seven-A, warp five. "

Starfleet Command requested that the Enterprise undertake a new mission. Kirk initially presents reasons why he thought the ship shouldn't be given the mission, but in the end he accepts the new assignment. It was somewhat similar with Picard and the war game assignment, Starfleet Command requested that the Enterprise engage in the war game, Picard had his own reasons not to, but in the end accepted the request of his superiors.

Picard did what he was told, as any officer (even one with reservations) in a military hierarchy would.

When Captain Kirk was requested to engage in war games in The Ultimate Computer, he reallly didn't have a lot of options in the matter. Neither did Picard. If Picard could have presented Starfleet Command a real reason (beyond a vague unrealistic philosophical belief) that his ship shouldn't engage in the war game, perhaps then the assignment would have been cancelled.

This is dialog from Journey's End.

Necheyev: "I understand your moral objections, Captain. If you wish, I can find someone else to command the Enterprise for this mission."
Picard: "That will not be necessary, Admiral."

Starfleet's request was that the Enterprise engage in the war game ... not Picard. Unless there was a damned good reason not to, THE SHIP was going to be in that war game, with or without Picard.


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Old July 21 2013, 11:36 PM   #104
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Darkwing wrote: View Post
Eddie, in the military, there is no such thing as a request.
That's kinda my point, wing. Orders are orders, and officers obey the chain of command as a matter of course. Of the very few circumstances in which an officer may receive a "request" from his or her superiors, those are NEVER confused with orders.

Orders may be phrased as requests, but only in the sense of "Flight is requesting another update on V103's engine trouble" which is just another way of saying "call the boss again."
in the last 20 years, I've heard many "requests". On occasion followed by "that was phrased as a request...".

Picard's choice of words is relevant here: he agrees to that request, and he tells Kolrami the same thing in the conference. Starfleet, therefore, gave him a choice. This isn't something you see a lot (hardly ever) in military organizations, but it's something you see a whole hell of a lot in police departments, private security companies and paramilitary organizations. Although, in fairness, in the military it most often occurs when a particular unit (say, a Coast Guard vessel) is being asked by a civilian organization (say, Chicago Tallships) to participate in some kind of public relations stunt. In Picard's case, it's significant that Kolrami is not actually a Starfleet officer and doesn't appear to be a ranking official in the Federation government either.
Kolrami appeared to be a contractor, to me. But again, I've experienced many "requests", such as "5th fleet requests a ship to investigate a suspicious dhow". That was a ranking officer kind enough to let several skippers argue who should get the tasking, rather than deciding to interrupt a particular ship's tasking.
You would know this if you'd served
Which I did, which to a small extent is part of the reason I find the concept of Starfleet as a military organization kind of laughable. They remind me of a bunch of cub scouts imitating a submarine movie: no readbacks, little discipline, not much decorum. You can tell what they're TRYING to be, but they're clearly not.
so, which branch? AF, Army, Navy, CG, Guard? I'm gueessing CG.
Remember, Paramount didn't have a military advisor, and SG-1 did, yet they're not that good about it, either. It's just Hollywood writing out of their nether orifice.
That, however, is not something I can't defend intellectually because it's a perception issue and COULD be unique to my own experiences: excepting a handful of TOS episodes, the only thing Starfleet seems to have in common with any branch of the U.S. military is that they carry weapons. And that's about it.
courts-martial? Uniform regs? Causus Belli? POW camps? We never saw Starfleet ever do anything that wasn't a military mission, aside from scale/milieu, except that the late 20th century division of labor in a smaller world with a bigger government and instant comms caused. NOAA, NASA, et alia took over some of those jobs because it spread the work to other bureacracies. This created the false idea the military isn't part of that.
Having guns does not a military make.
On that scale, only an anarchy would allow world-killing weapons to anyone except the military.
anyone who's served would also have scorn for the "non-military" starfleet idea.
Why? Is the Army Astronaut program really that popular with the kids?
[/quote] You're the only Trekkie I've ever heard of who's served that thinks SF isn't the UFP's military, just not well written.
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Old July 24 2013, 04:18 AM   #105
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Re: Marines and Combat Personel?

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Picard's choice of words is relevant here: he agrees to that request, and he tells Kolrami the same thing in the conference. Starfleet, therefore, gave him a choice.
According to him.
I see no reason to question his truthfulness at this time.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
This is dialog from The Immunity Syndrome.

Kirk: "Kirk here. Go ahead."
Starfleet: "You will divert immediately to sector three nine J."
Kirk: " Sir, the Enterprise just completed an exhausting mission. We're on our way in for R and R. There must be another starship in that sector."
Starfleet: "Negative. This is a rescue priority. We've lost all contact with solar system Gamma Seven-A, which the Intrepid was investigating. And we've just lost contact with the Intrepid. Report progress."
Kirk: "Order acknowledged. Kirk out. Mister Kyle, you heard the order. Set course for Gamma Seven-A, warp five. "

Starfleet Command requested...
I do not see any form of request in the above dialog. In fact, Kirk replies "Order acknowledged." This was an order, not a request.

Kirk initially presents reasons why he thought the ship shouldn't be given the mission...
Which, had they given him a choice, would have been his reasons to decline. But they didn't.

When Captain Kirk was requested to engage in war games in The Ultimate Computer...
Nope. Kirk tells Bob Wesley "I received orders to proceed here. No explanation given."

Necheyev: "I understand your moral objections, Captain. If you wish, I can find someone else to command the Enterprise for this mission."
Picard: "That will not be necessary, Admiral."
The sentence immediately before that is: "Then your orders will be to remove them by whatever means are necessary."

That's "orders" not "request."

Starfleet's request was that the Enterprise engage in the war game ...
And Picard declined until he had a good reason to accept. A request is not an order.
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