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Old July 13 2013, 08:34 PM   #676
sonak
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Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

maneth wrote: View Post
I have no problem with superstitions and individual spiritual experiences (even belief in a supernatural being) will survive for as long as humanity survives. However, I do hope that Roddenberry's vision of no organized religion, with religious figures in positions of authority and religious principles as foundations for secular laws (except in cases where such principles transcend individual religions, as in "You shall not commit murder") will come to pass. In fact, such developments have been underway in the West (at least outside the US) since the mid-20th century if not earlier.

organized religion at its simplest is just groups of like-minded people with similar beliefs coming together. I don't see how it disappears completely without the kind of oppression that wouldn't fit an optimistic future.


But yes, organized religion stripped of its previous power and influence does seem like a reasonable extrapolation, since as you mentioned, that trend's already underway in a lot of places.
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Old July 14 2013, 12:42 AM   #677
TheGoodNews
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas


The evidence you've presented to make your case is faulty.
No just factual.
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Old July 14 2013, 01:43 AM   #678
Nightdiamond
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

maneth wrote: View Post
...... However, I do hope that Roddenberry's vision of no organized religion, with religious figures in positions of authority and religious principles as foundations for secular laws (except in cases where such principles transcend individual religions, as in "You shall not commit murder") will come to pass. In fact, such developments have been underway in the West (at least outside the US) since the mid-20th century if not earlier.
sonak wrote: View Post
....But yes, organized religion stripped of its previous power and influence does seem like a reasonable extrapolation, since as you mentioned, that trend's already underway in a lot of places.

Rodenberry's Trek basically says that humanity solved their major problems without religion whatsoever. It was all done by scientific discovery and hard work.

Thanks to technology, there is no hunger, need or want, so people now work to better themselves and the rest of humanity... you have to admit, this plan does sound pretty practical for an advanced society.

If anything, many episodes say that religion is the cause of the problems that humans tried so hard to get out of.

But the downside to this, is that the materialism seems to leave (at least humans) empty. Notice how various spirituality and religious themes keep popping up.

Whenever Picard, Sisko or other human characters are asked about what they believed in, they always gave a vague, awkward answer.

They needed something to believe in.
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Old July 14 2013, 01:19 PM   #679
Lt. Cheka Wey
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

They needed something to believe in.
The Federation was neat enough for that purpose.
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Old July 14 2013, 02:29 PM   #680
sonak
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
maneth wrote: View Post
...... However, I do hope that Roddenberry's vision of no organized religion, with religious figures in positions of authority and religious principles as foundations for secular laws (except in cases where such principles transcend individual religions, as in "You shall not commit murder") will come to pass. In fact, such developments have been underway in the West (at least outside the US) since the mid-20th century if not earlier.
sonak wrote: View Post
....But yes, organized religion stripped of its previous power and influence does seem like a reasonable extrapolation, since as you mentioned, that trend's already underway in a lot of places.

Rodenberry's Trek basically says that humanity solved their major problems without religion whatsoever. It was all done by scientific discovery and hard work.

Thanks to technology, there is no hunger, need or want, so people now work to better themselves and the rest of humanity... you have to admit, this plan does sound pretty practical for an advanced society.

If anything, many episodes say that religion is the cause of the problems that humans tried so hard to get out of.

But the downside to this, is that the materialism seems to leave (at least humans) empty. Notice how various spirituality and religious themes keep popping up.

Whenever Picard, Sisko or other human characters are asked about what they believed in, they always gave a vague, awkward answer.

They needed something to believe in.

up until Chakotay on Voyager, it seemed that while spirituality/faith was fine for non-Human characters(Worf, Kira, etc.) that Humans were generally without it, which is silly.
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Old July 14 2013, 08:28 PM   #681
T'Girl
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Whenever Picard, Sisko or other human characters are asked about what they believed in, they always gave a vague, awkward answer.
Picard was actually very articulate on the subject in Where Silence Has Lease. When Nagilum in the guise of Data asked Picard about his personal belief concerning death, Picard stated that he did think that the self survived the demise of the flesh.

Picard believes our existence is beyond scientific understanding.

sonak wrote: View Post
up until Chakotay on Voyager, it seemed that while spirituality/faith was fine for non-Human characters (Worf, Kira, etc.) that Humans were generally without it, which is silly.
TOS didn't seem to have any difficulty in this area, we saw some Human characters with overt sights of faith. Kirk with his "the one" statement made his position clear.

The 24th century series do seem to have more of a problem with it's completely Human characters, and making clear where they stood on faith. Largely we don't know what they believe in, one way or the other.

It was the half Human Deanna who seems to believe in fate (Pen Pals). On Voyager, when a story involved a character having a spiritual revelation (Barge of the Dead), it was the half Human Belanna and not one of her 100% Human shipmates.

Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
They needed something to believe in.
The Federation was neat enough for that purpose.
This is something I have a problem with. It's kind of like the planet with one people, one climate, one culture, one mode of dress. All of the the Federation, and all of Humanity, are not going to have the exact same position on faith, spirituality and organized religion. Some will be pro, some neutral, and some negative.

Somewhere in the 150 plus mix of Member worlds of the Federation, there just might be a "planet Vatican."

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Old July 14 2013, 08:41 PM   #682
Jonas Grumby
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Somewhere in the 150 plus mix of Member worlds of the Federation, there just might be a "planet Vatican."
Be interesting to see William Ware Theiss's version of a nun's habit.
__________________
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Old July 14 2013, 09:34 PM   #683
T'Girl
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Latex is alway nice.


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Old July 15 2013, 02:38 AM   #684
Nightdiamond
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Whenever Picard, Sisko or other human characters are asked about what they believed in, they always gave a vague, awkward answer.
Picard was actually very articulate on the subject in Where Silence Has Lease. When Nagilum in the guise of Data asked Picard about his personal belief concerning death, Picard stated that he did think that the self survived the demise of the flesh.

Picard believes our existence is beyond scientific understanding.
I thought his answer was somewhat limited and vague, as the most he could come up he felt there may be something more compared to what other people believed--that this is all there is.

It kind of fit in with the materialist and scientific view that many humans and Starfleet officers tend to have had.

When Sisko was asked if he had any gods or higher beliefs, he said, "....there are..things I believe in ..." as if caught in an awkward question.

There seemed to be a lot of reluctance to embrace any higher concepts or religion among humans in Trek.

Lt. Cheka Wey wrote: View Post
They needed something to believe in.
The Federation was neat enough for that purpose.
This is something I have a problem with. It's kind of like the planet with one people, one climate, one culture, one mode of dress. All of the the Federation, and all of Humanity, are not going to have the exact same position on faith, spirituality and organized religion. Some will be pro, some neutral, and some negative.[/QUOTE]

There is a certain logic to that though... if people are well fed, healthy, secure, no social problems, no needs or wants, they may not need to rely on religion answers as much anymore--at least that may be what Trek is saying.
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Old July 18 2013, 11:33 PM   #685
TheGoodNews
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

[QUOTE=Belz...;8345827]
TheGoodNews wrote: View Post

In answer to your question, the Spanish Revolution lasted from 1936-1939.
It doesn't seem to have been a stable working system, though.
Again you seem to be drawing rather shortsighted conclusions. It may have been brief but only because it was under heavy siege by multiple forces (i.e. fascism, bolshevism, the Spanish Republic, separatists and the liberal democracies) and yet despite that it did thrive:

"The success of collectivization of industry and commerce impressed even highly unsympathetic observers such as (The Spanish Cockpit author Franz) Borkenau." Noam Chomsky - Objectivity and Liberal Scholarship (from Chomsky on Anarchism)

"The collective expanded normally. There was never any shortage of food, clothing, footwear-in short, life's essentials were in ample supply." The CNT in the Spanish Revolution by Jose Peirats

"There was no unemployment, and the price of living was still extremely low; you saw very few conspicuously destitute people, and no beggars except the gypsies. Above all thre was a belief in the revolution and the future, a feeling of having suddenly emerge into an era of equality and freedom. Human beings were trying to behave as human beings and not as cogs in the capitalist machine." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia

It must've been pretty durable to achieve all that while being under constant siege from without and within.

But then the reason I pointed out the Argentinean example was because the same social transformation occured during the past decade, but mercifully without the bloodshed of a civil war. And you know what? More than a decade later this social transformation is still happening. In fact, in 2011 the Argentinean workers won a new law that allows workers to take over their places of employment during economic break downs.

"The movement led in 2011 to a new bankruptcy law that facilitates take over by the workers.[16]"

Then there's the moneyless barter networks seen in the documentary "Argentina: Surviving without money." The video mentions that nearly 100k Argentineans participated in these moneyless Barter/Exchange networks and that these moneyless networks were so successful that there was hope of copying them in other South American nations.

Last edited by TheGoodNews; July 18 2013 at 11:53 PM. Reason: quotes
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