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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old July 18 2013, 02:55 AM   #16
Warped9
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Re: why is star trek original series disliked

I have always hated the charge of "cheesy" and "campy" against Star Trek. Yes, there are occasional elements of those in the show, but they are occasional and minor. They were not intentional and/or pervasive aspects of the show as a whole.

I still think it is one of the very best SF shows of all time and it remains my overall favourite series. I certainly prefer it over anything else that followed in its name even though I have enjoyed a decent portion of TNG.

One big thing I love about TOS was its vision. I don't mean the humanistic ideal that most seem to focus on. I mean its vision to dare to deal with big ideas despite being hampered by constraints in time and resources. It was effectively doing a mini science fiction movie every week at a time when the resources were barely suitable to the task. But they did it anyway and pulled it off repeatedly with incredible creativity. Something like TOS deserved the equivalent resources of a feature film, but that was impossible on a television production budget (even today) and yet they went ahead and did it anyway.

I don't care how many people might laugh and deride and dismiss TOS because in my eyes many of those individuals seem blinded by lots of flash and polish. But TOS had substance that a lot of film and television SF lacks today as much as back in the days.

TOS might also be resented on another level: by being first. The spinoffs owe their existence to it and yet none of the spinoffs to date have managed to eclipse TOS in the way it continues to resonate in the greater collective consciousness, and in the scientific community. TNG briefly eclipsed TOS for a few years when it was in production, but once that time was over the spotlight went back to the original. DS9, VOY and ENT will never be remembered or resonate as the original did and continues to do. I think TNG remains the most successful spinoff overall, but it too is also overshadowed by TOS. Although anything is possible I seriously doubt we will see a TNG reboot of any kind or even a return to the TNG era should Star Trek return to television. But they did reboot TOS (much as I loathe the way they did so) and I suspect it will be rebooted yet again when Abrams' tenure is done.

Star Trek TOS greatly influenced me just as it has greatly influenced many people. It helped define what I look for in entertainment and in storytelling. It came along at just the right time to click with the right generation who would "get it." It wasn't the first effort to make smart science fiction, but it was arguably the most successful. Perhaps not in its initial debut, but certainly in the following years. The show grew more popular in syndicated reruns during the 1970s than when it originally aired. Something in it was reaching that generation of viewers.

And here we are still discussing and debating it going on five decades later.

I loved Star Trek in the dark days of the '70s when it wasn't yet recognized for what it was even by those who owned it and would later learn to exploit it. I wasn't deterred by the naysayers then and I won't be put off by any new generation of naysayers either.
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Old July 18 2013, 03:38 AM   #17
TREK_GOD_1
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Re: why is star trek original series disliked

Warped9 wrote: View Post
I have always hated the charge of "cheesy" and "campy" against Star Trek. Yes, there are occasional elements of those in the show, but they are occasional and minor. They were not intentional and/or pervasive aspects of the show as a whole.

I still think it is one of the very best SF shows of all time and it remains my overall favourite series. I certainly prefer it over anything else that followed in its name even though I have enjoyed a decent portion of TNG.

One big thing I love about TOS was its vision. I don't mean the humanistic ideal that most seem to focus on. I mean its vision to dare to deal with big ideas despite being hampered by constraints in time and resources. It was effectively doing a mini science fiction movie every week at a time when the resources were barely suitable to the task. But they did it anyway and pulled it off repeatedly with incredible creativity. Something like TOS deserved the equivalent resources of a feature film, but that was impossible on a television production budget (even today) and yet they went ahead and did it anyway.

I don't care how many people might laugh and deride and dismiss TOS because in my eyes many of those individuals seem blinded by lots of flash and polish. But TOS had substance that a lot of film and television SF lacks today as much as back in the days.

TOS might also be resented on another level: by being first. The spinoffs owe their existence to it and yet none of the spinoffs to date have managed to eclipse TOS in the way it continues to resonate in the greater collective consciousness, and in the scientific community. TNG briefly eclipsed TOS for a few years when it was in production, but once that time was over the spotlight went back to the original. DS9, VOY and ENT will never be remembered or resonate as the original did and continues to do. I think TNG remains the most successful spinoff overall, but it too is also overshadowed by TOS. Although anything is possible I seriously doubt we will see a TNG reboot of any kind or even a return to the TNG era should Star Trek return to television. But they did reboot TOS (much as I loathe the way they did so) and I suspect it will be rebooted yet again when Abrams' tenure is done.

Star Trek TOS greatly influenced me just as it has greatly influenced many people. It helped define what I look for in entertainment and in storytelling. It came along at just the right time to click with the right generation who would "get it." It wasn't the first effort to make smart science fiction, but it was arguably the most successful. Perhaps not in its initial debut, but certainly in the following years. The show grew more popular in syndicated reruns during the 1970s than when it originally aired. Something in it was reaching that generation of viewers.

And here we are still discussing and debating it going on five decades later.

I loved Star Trek in the dark days of the '70s when it wasn't yet recognized for what it was even by those who owned it and would later learn to exploit it. I wasn't deterred by the naysayers then and I won't be put off by any new generation of naysayers either.
Fantastic post.
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Old July 18 2013, 04:16 AM   #18
gomtuu20
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Re: why is star trek original series disliked

Warped9 wrote: View Post
I have always hated the charge of "cheesy" and "campy" against Star Trek. Yes, there are occasional elements of those in the show, but they are occasional and minor. They were not intentional and/or pervasive aspects of the show as a whole.

I still think it is one of the very best SF shows of all time and it remains my overall favourite series. I certainly prefer it over anything else that followed in its name even though I have enjoyed a decent portion of TNG.

One big thing I love about TOS was its vision. I don't mean the humanistic ideal that most seem to focus on. I mean its vision to dare to deal with big ideas despite being hampered by constraints in time and resources. It was effectively doing a mini science fiction movie every week at a time when the resources were barely suitable to the task. But they did it anyway and pulled it off repeatedly with incredible creativity. Something like TOS deserved the equivalent resources of a feature film, but that was impossible on a television production budget (even today) and yet they went ahead and did it anyway.

I don't care how many people might laugh and deride and dismiss TOS because in my eyes many of those individuals seem blinded by lots of flash and polish. But TOS had substance that a lot of film and television SF lacks today as much as back in the days.

TOS might also be resented on another level: by being first. The spinoffs owe their existence to it and yet none of the spinoffs to date have managed to eclipse TOS in the way it continues to resonate in the greater collective consciousness, and in the scientific community. TNG briefly eclipsed TOS for a few years when it was in production, but once that time was over the spotlight went back to the original. DS9, VOY and ENT will never be remembered or resonate as the original did and continues to do. I think TNG remains the most successful spinoff overall, but it too is also overshadowed by TOS. Although anything is possible I seriously doubt we will see a TNG reboot of any kind or even a return to the TNG era should Star Trek return to television. But they did reboot TOS (much as I loathe the way they did so) and I suspect it will be rebooted yet again when Abrams' tenure is done.

Star Trek TOS greatly influenced me just as it has greatly influenced many people. It helped define what I look for in entertainment and in storytelling. It came along at just the right time to click with the right generation who would "get it." It wasn't the first effort to make smart science fiction, but it was arguably the most successful. Perhaps not in its initial debut, but certainly in the following years. The show grew more popular in syndicated reruns during the 1970s than when it originally aired. Something in it was reaching that generation of viewers.

And here we are still discussing and debating it going on five decades later.

I loved Star Trek in the dark days of the '70s when it wasn't yet recognized for what it was even by those who owned it and would later learn to exploit it. I wasn't deterred by the naysayers then and I won't be put off by any new generation of naysayers either.
Well said.
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Old July 18 2013, 05:05 AM   #19
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Re: why is star trek original series disliked

When it was announced that TNG would be coming out, many people laughed at Roddenberry. They said he just could not catch lightening in a bottle twice. No one could even concieve of Trek with Kirk, Spock and McCoy. No one could understand why anyone would even try. The conventional wisdom was also that Trek could not survive without the chemisty of the original actors. For a while, they seemed to be proven right. While there were some great moments in the first two seasons, most of the episodes were pretty lame.

With a few notable exceptions (like "Heart of Glory"), the only character that had any development was Wesley Crusher, the most annoying character. It took a full two years for TNG to find its footing. IF TOS FANS (like me) HAD NOT EMBRACED TNG EARLY ON, IT NEVER WOULD HAVE SURVIVED PAST ITS FIRST TWO SEASONS. TOS fans were the only ones watching for a while. They formed the ratings core the show needed to survive until it could find its footing in the third season.

TNG would have never gotten on the air if TOS had not been so wildly popular.

Nothing in the format of TNG is orignal. The Enterprise D is mearly an update of the orignal. The transporter, phasers, etc., etc., etc. were all from the orignal show. More importantly, the most important concepts of TNG were lifted directly from TOS. The basic format of a non-human character commenting on humanity is critical to the shows' success. The idea of a top-notch crew in the flagship of the fleet exploring the unknown (something that is missing in DS9) is all from TOS. TNG was basically a continuation of TOS in my mind.

Sure the TOS had a few stinkers, but at least they never did a clip show! May I just point out "Shades of Gray"? Even with the decline in TOS season three, most of those episodes are still far superior to the first two seasons of TNG.

Trek fans disrespecting TOS is unmerited, shortsighted and ignorant.
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Old July 18 2013, 05:57 AM   #20
Lance
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Re: why is star trek original series disliked

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
I feel that many people who dislike TOS are looking at the show through their modern, jaded eyes and views. When you look at the show in relation to what else was on TV at that time in the 60's, it is one of the greatest shows of all time.
^ This.

I've long come to the view that some people just can't get their heads around the 1960s styling of it, and would probably have the same problem with any show from that era. TOS is best watched in the same mindset as one watches the Adam West version of Batman. Both have got a campy sensibility that they never try to shy away from, but that's part of their charm. It certainly isn't a detraction.
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Old July 18 2013, 06:03 AM   #21
Warped9
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Re: why is star trek original series disliked

Lance wrote: View Post
Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
I feel that many people who dislike TOS are looking at the show through their modern, jaded eyes and views. When you look at the show in relation to what else was on TV at that time in the 60's, it is one of the greatest shows of all time.
^ This.

I've long come to the view that some people just can't get their heads around the 1960s styling of it, and would probably have the same problem with any show from that era. TOS is best watched in the same mindset as one watches the Adam West version of Batman. Both have got a campy sensibility that they never try to shy away from, but that's part of their charm. It certainly isn't a detraction.
THIS is exactly what I was commenting on and what really pisses me off. The Adam West Batman and Star Trek cannot be lumped together in any way whatsoever. Batman was deliberate camp while TOS never was. If someone things TOS is camp then I strongly suspect they do not really understand what camp is.
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Old July 18 2013, 06:08 AM   #22
Lance
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Re: why is star trek original series disliked

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
I feel that many people who dislike TOS are looking at the show through their modern, jaded eyes and views. When you look at the show in relation to what else was on TV at that time in the 60's, it is one of the greatest shows of all time.
^ This.

I've long come to the view that some people just can't get their heads around the 1960s styling of it, and would probably have the same problem with any show from that era. TOS is best watched in the same mindset as one watches the Adam West version of Batman. Both have got a campy sensibility that they never try to shy away from, but that's part of their charm. It certainly isn't a detraction.
THIS is exactly what I was commenting on and what really pisses me off. The Adam West Batman and Star Trek cannot be lumped together in any way whatsoever. Batman was deliberate camp while TOS never was. If someone things TOS is camp then I strongly suspect they do not really understand what camp is.
And I think the people who associate it with being high drama fail to see the fun which is inherent in the format. I acknowledge there's definitely a middle ground to be found though.
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Old July 18 2013, 06:13 AM   #23
Warped9
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Re: why is star trek original series disliked

Lance wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
^ This.

I've long come to the view that some people just can't get their heads around the 1960s styling of it, and would probably have the same problem with any show from that era. TOS is best watched in the same mindset as one watches the Adam West version of Batman. Both have got a campy sensibility that they never try to shy away from, but that's part of their charm. It certainly isn't a detraction.
THIS is exactly what I was commenting on and what really pisses me off. The Adam West Batman and Star Trek cannot be lumped together in any way whatsoever. Batman was deliberate camp while TOS never was. If someone things TOS is camp then I strongly suspect they do not really understand what camp is.
And I think the people who associate it with being high drama fail to see the fun which is inherent in the format. I acknowledge there's definitely a middle ground to be found though.
Something being occasionally fun and something being deliberate mockery are two distinctly different things. The Adam West Batman (and shows like Get Smart) deliberately spoofed and mocked the subject matter. That was their reason for being. Star Trek could do humour (and better than any spinoff series or film), but it was never deliberate mockery of the subject matter.
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Old July 18 2013, 03:33 PM   #24
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Re: why is star trek original series disliked

One could make a case for "The Trouble With Tribbles," "A Peice Of The Action" and "I, Mudd" deliberately veering into camp, particularly the latter two episodes. But two or three episodes deliberately humourous episodes out of seventy-nine does not make the series predominantly camp as a whole.

I am presently rewatching The X-Files. There are episodes with an obvious humourous slant, but they are very few. The series did exhibit an evident humour running throughout (much like TOS or Stargate or many other series), but it certainly isn't seen as a lighthearted show even by a long shot.
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Old July 18 2013, 04:06 PM   #25
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Re: why is star trek original series disliked

I didn't think TOS was significantly disliked, I've seen plenty of support for it from this community ever since I joined and constant discussions, artwork, representation (nearly all positive) for it all along.

The volume of artwork, fanfiction, fan productions, prop work and even things as simple as the amount avatars here still show a strong support and love of the show.

If anything, as Daniel mentioned, TNG is a lot more frequently ridiculed these days. I grew up on it but I still prefer TOS to it.
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Old July 18 2013, 04:39 PM   #26
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Re: why is star trek original series disliked

[QUOTE=Warped9;8394745]I have always hated the charge of "cheesy" and "campy" against Star Trek. Yes, there are occasional elements of those in the show, but they are occasional and minor. They were not intentional and/or pervasive aspects of the show as a whole.

I still think it is one of the very best SF shows of all time and it remains my overall favourite series. I certainly prefer it over anything else that followed in its name even though I have enjoyed a decent portion of TNG.

One big thing I love about TOS was its vision. I don't mean the humanistic ideal that most seem to focus on. I mean its vision to dare to deal with big ideas despite being hampered by constraints in time and resources. It was effectively doing a mini science fiction movie every week at a time when the resources were barely suitable to the task. But they did it anyway and pulled it off repeatedly with incredible creativity. Something like TOS deserved the equivalent resources of a feature film, but that was impossible on a television production budget (even today) and yet they went ahead and did it anyway.

I don't care how many people might laugh and deride and dismiss TOS because in my eyes many of those individuals seem blinded by lots of flash and polish. But TOS had substance that a lot of film and television SF lacks today as much as back in the days.

TOS might also be resented on another level: by being first. The spinoffs owe their existence to it and yet none of the spinoffs to date have managed to eclipse TOS in the way it continues to resonate in the greater collective consciousness, and in the scientific community. TNG briefly eclipsed TOS for a few years when it was in production, but once that time was over the spotlight went back to the original. DS9, VOY and ENT will never be remembered or resonate as the original did and continues to do. I think TNG remains the most successful spinoff overall, but it too is also overshadowed by TOS. Although anything is possible I seriously doubt we will see a TNG reboot of any kind or even a return to the TNG era should Star Trek return to television. But they did reboot TOS (much as I loathe the way they did so) and I suspect it will be rebooted yet again when Abrams' tenure is done.

Star Trek TOS greatly influenced me just as it has greatly influenced many people. It helped define what I look for in entertainment and in storytelling. It came along at just the right time to click with the right generation who would "get it." It wasn't the first effort to make smart science fiction, but it was arguably the most successful. Perhaps not in its initial debut, but certainly in the following years. The show grew more popular in syndicated reruns during the 1970s than when it originally aired. Something in it was reaching that generation of viewers.

And here we are still discussing and debating it going on five decades later.

I loved Star Trek in the dark days of the '70s when it wasn't yet recognized for what it was even by those who owned it and would later learn to exploit it. I wasn't deterred by the naysayers then and I won't be put off by any new generation of naysayers either.[/

THANKS FOR YOUR GREAT POST
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Old July 18 2013, 06:24 PM   #27
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Re: why is star trek original series disliked

bbailey861 wrote: View Post
I love TOS. I grew up in the 60's, so I don't have a hangup about the 'dated' aspect of the show. The themes are just as relevant today as they were then. More so, perhaps - just turn on the news channel.
^^^
Why type a response when this one fits me to a tee?
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Old July 19 2013, 12:16 AM   #28
Irishman
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Re: why is star trek original series disliked

tmosler wrote: View Post
After reading many fourms on tos i am confused at the negativity toward the show. As much as i like tng and for the most part ds9 tos was always my favorite. Most of the negativity revolves around it being cheesy,dated, and goofy which i can see in some episodes (the naked time and this side of paridise ) but for me this makes it even more enjoyable. Also in addition to the new remastered effects the character interaction between spock, mcoy, and kirk and more focus on exploration then tng makes it my favorite star trek show. Lastly there was lots more action then tng ever had and i feel it had the best humor which for the most part other trek series failed at. You can comment on whether you like the show and why below
I don't know where you might have heard such sentiments.
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Old July 19 2013, 01:45 AM   #29
The Old Mixer
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Re: why is star trek original series disliked

I think this post might have been better off in General Trek, where some of the people who don't like TOS could have shared their views. You're preaching to the choir here.
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Old July 19 2013, 02:08 AM   #30
Kinokima
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Re: why is star trek original series disliked

I don't think I want to read negative opinions about TOS so I am glad it's been mostly people saying why it's great.

I got upset enough when someone bashed McCoy on this thread.
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