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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old July 14 2013, 05:50 AM   #76
Vulcan Logician
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

^ Your not missing much.
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Old July 14 2013, 05:56 AM   #77
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Nietzsche, on the other hand, is worth reading. I don't like his ideas, but they are worthy.
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Old July 14 2013, 06:05 AM   #78
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

I have gleaned ALL the wisdom I need from 15 years of people's sig lines. That's where it's all distilled, the good bits. Just skip all the other stuff and get to the soundbites.
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Old July 14 2013, 06:23 AM   #79
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

I'm almost finished with my VOY 3rd run and look forward to posting my thoughts on the OP after I rewatch endgame (while taking notes).

As far as wisdom goes, Teacake, you might very well glean a greater wisdom from sigs than from Plato, Pascal, or Nietzsche. That's the cool thing about wisdom. That's why philosophy is always exploring. And that's why I love wisdom.
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Old July 18 2013, 03:05 AM   #80
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Okay, I reiterate the thesis I made in the OP. I'm fresh off watching Endgame and it is even more awesome to me now.

Let's look at some of the arguments against it.

"detractor": The Borg were feeble and their vessels were able to be destroyed with a single torpedo.

me: Yes, but these were "futuristic" torpedoes developed by the Federation specifically to thwart the Borg. It makes sense that if they were taken back in time they would handily destroy Borg cubes. Even such, Old Janeway fears that the Borg could easily adapt if they didn't finish the mission soon.

"detractor": Old Janeway destroyed the timeline and altered the course of history. An action she condemns in earlier episodes.

me: I concede this point to a certain degree, but your voice is still "whiny". Deviation from predictability makes for awesome episodes and Endgame is no exception. Would you rather have Janeway behaving in a completely predictable way for VOY's final episode? No. If that were the case, you would be complaining about THAT.

"detractor": We didn't get to see Voyager reunite with Earth.

me: It's okay. It would have been nice to see, but, hey, Endgame was still awesome. I'm happy. I have attained closure. All is well.

I do concede that these arguments are valid to some extent. There are other "nitpicky" arguments that are just as valid (such as the convenience of a wormhole that leads to Earth and why, if such a wormhole existed, Earth hadn't been handily assimilated). But look. It's TREK not the bible. It doesn't have to be perfect. Science fiction always requires some suspension of disbelief.

Even with these "flaws" Endgame tells a compelling story. A captain who, out of loyalty to her crew and a (misplaced) sense of guilt decides to violate protocol and perhaps her own sense of morality to make things right. She escapes Federation and Klingon pursuers to ultimately overcome the Borg and attain her goal. It's action-packed, Old Janeway is just as awesome as Normal Janeway and the crew finally gets home in an exiting and unpredictable fashion. Plus we get to see Janeway sacrifice herself AND survive to get the crew home.

I'd like to end my thoughts on this thread with my key point:

"Endgame was awesome!"

EDIT: "detractor" used to read "whiny voice"
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Last edited by Vulcan Logician; July 18 2013 at 06:21 AM.
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Old July 18 2013, 04:01 AM   #81
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Hard to consider you credible when your idea of bringing up counterarguments is to present them in a whiny voice. It's even less credible when you go on to acknowledge that they have some validity.

What were you trying to accomplish by demeaning those who disagree with you?
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Old July 18 2013, 04:10 AM   #82
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Yeah Vulcan, not cool. Rational conversation goes out the window when you imply there's something wrong with anyone who has an opposing argument. I suppose if we had different favorite colors I'd be saying what mine was in a whiny voice too? If you love Endgame great. Enjoy the heck out of it. Gets pretty selfish when you get insulting to anyone who doesn't share your opinion though.
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Old July 18 2013, 04:56 AM   #83
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

R. Star wrote: View Post
Yeah Vulcan, not cool. Rational conversation goes out the window when you imply there's something wrong with anyone who has an opposing argument. I suppose if we had different favorite colors I'd be saying what mine was in a whiny voice too? If you love Endgame great. Enjoy the heck out of it. Gets pretty selfish when you get insulting to anyone who doesn't share your opinion though.
Hmm...I understand what you mean as a fellow person who also dislikes aspects of Endgame, but I didn't feel too much offense. I think he just really, REALLY loves Endgame.

It's an episode that is known as a "highly complained" about one in the fandom for usually the same reasons (I know I complain for the same reasons all the time), hence the whiny voice perhaps? I know I complain the heck out of it.

Just my thought.
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Old July 18 2013, 05:17 AM   #84
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Complaining and nitpicking every flaw is half the fun in bad episodes!
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Old July 18 2013, 06:14 AM   #85
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

R. Star wrote: View Post
Yeah Vulcan, not cool. Rational conversation goes out the window when you imply there's something wrong with anyone who has an opposing argument. I suppose if we had different favorite colors I'd be saying what mine was in a whiny voice too? If you love Endgame great. Enjoy the heck out of it. Gets pretty selfish when you get insulting to anyone who doesn't share your opinion though.
Okay. I see your point. I didn't mean to offend anyone, and certainly those who dislike the episode aren't automatically "whiny". I was trying to be clever. (Not my best skill). Aside from my "whiny voice" mistake my arguments still stand. Endgame was awesome.

I've liberated my former post of its offensive portions to be more fair and to clarify its meaning.
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Last edited by Vulcan Logician; July 18 2013 at 06:38 AM.
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Old July 18 2013, 07:21 AM   #86
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

The best part of Endgame was when it was all over, Harry was still an ensign.
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Old July 18 2013, 07:45 AM   #87
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Melakon wrote: View Post
The best part of Endgame was when it was all over, Harry was still an ensign.
You win the thread.
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Old July 18 2013, 11:02 AM   #88
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Vulcan Logician wrote: View Post
Okay, I reiterate the thesis I made in the OP. I'm fresh off watching Endgame and it is even more awesome to me now.

Let's look at some of the arguments against it.

"detractor": The Borg were feeble and their vessels were able to be destroyed with a single torpedo.

me: Yes, but these were "futuristic" torpedoes developed by the Federation specifically to thwart the Borg. It makes sense that if they were taken back in time they would handily destroy Borg cubes. Even such, Old Janeway fears that the Borg could easily adapt if they didn't finish the mission soon.
And if the plan failed the Borg would have knowledge of advanced future weapons which could make it wasier to conquer the UFP.


"detractor": Old Janeway destroyed the timeline and altered the course of history. An action she condemns in earlier episodes.

me: I concede this point to a certain degree, but your voice is still "whiny". Deviation from predictability makes for awesome episodes and Endgame is no exception. Would you rather have Janeway behaving in a completely predictable way for VOY's final episode? No. If that were the case, you would be complaining about THAT.
In other words her principals mean nothing. The point about principals is sometimes to truely believe in them it means sometimes you make your life harder.
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Old July 18 2013, 12:47 PM   #89
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Melakon wrote: View Post
The best part of Endgame was when it was all over, Harry was still an ensign.
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Old July 18 2013, 04:10 PM   #90
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Re: Endgame was awesome!

Vulcan Logician wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Yeah Vulcan, not cool. Rational conversation goes out the window when you imply there's something wrong with anyone who has an opposing argument. I suppose if we had different favorite colors I'd be saying what mine was in a whiny voice too? If you love Endgame great. Enjoy the heck out of it. Gets pretty selfish when you get insulting to anyone who doesn't share your opinion though.
Okay. I see your point. I didn't mean to offend anyone, and certainly those who dislike the episode aren't automatically "whiny". I was trying to be clever. (Not my best skill). Aside from my "whiny voice" mistake my arguments still stand. Endgame was awesome.

I've liberated my former post of its offensive portions to be more fair and to clarify its meaning.
Thank you for your edits.
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