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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old July 18 2013, 01:25 AM   #16
Sran
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

SchwEnt wrote: View Post
Yet somehow Worf's Change of Heart or other mistakes are the ones that will cost his career? What about Picard's Insurrection? Kirk's stealing the Enterprise? They all took actions that should cost them, but only Worf will suffer the lasting consequences?
Revisionist history. You're forgetting that Kirk did face the consequences of his actions. He was demoted to captain. That the move was something he secretly wanted had nothing to do with the decision to boot him from the admiralty. And had Kirk and company not saved Earth from the cetacean probe, it's likely they'd have been thrown out of Starfleet altogether, possibly imprisoned. The charges against the former Enterprise crew were dropped only because their actions were associated with the rescue of Spock and the eventual saving of Earth.

As for Picard, he wasn't punished because he did nothing wrong. Admiral Dougherty threatened him with court martial, but that was before Picard learned of the common ancestory between the Son'a and the Ba'ku and Dougherty's attempts to force-relocate the Ba'ku at the behest of the Son'a. Riker and LaForge were able to contact Starfleet and explain the situation, so whatever charges may have been filed against Picard were eventually dropped. No crime, no punishment.

Also keep in mind that both Kirk and Picard were involved in these situations after each had made captain (or better). Worf was a lieutenant commander at the time of "Change of Heart," and although he'd served as captain of the Defiant in Sisko's absence, that's not the same thing as having the responsibility full time.

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Old July 18 2013, 01:39 AM   #17
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Unless your last name is Kirk you don't get the Enterprise right out of the gate. You have to pay your dues with "lesser" commands first. Riker found that out the hard way.
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Old July 18 2013, 01:45 AM   #18
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Unless your last name is Kirk you don't get the Enterprise right out of the gate. You have to pay your dues with "lesser" commands first. Riker found that out the hard way.
Well, technically both Decker and Spock got the Enterprise as their first commands. But Kirk recommended Decker to replace him, and we don't know how Spock ended up as captain aside from his commanding the vessel while it was assigned to the Academy.

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Old July 18 2013, 02:39 AM   #19
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Sran wrote: View Post
Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Unless your last name is Kirk you don't get the Enterprise right out of the gate. You have to pay your dues with "lesser" commands first. Riker found that out the hard way.
Well, technically both Decker and Spock got the Enterprise as their first commands. But Kirk recommended Decker to replace him, and we don't know how Spock ended up as captain aside from his commanding the vessel while it was assigned to the Academy.

--Sran
Technically, Decker never left the gate. I don't remember if Spock ever took the cadet crew on a training cruise, but when Kirk came aboard Spock insisted on relinquishing command. "First best destiny" or something.
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Old July 18 2013, 02:49 AM   #20
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Technically, Decker never left the gate. I don't remember if Spock ever took the cadet crew on a training cruise, but when Kirk came aboard Spock insisted on relinquishing command. "First best destiny" or something.
The Enterprise short-story anthology clearly depicts Spock in command of Enterprise in 2282, about two years before TWOK. Not cannon, of course, but plausible.

Christopher's novel Ex Machina similarly establishes that Decker really was captain of the Enterprise during its refit, as he hand-picked nearly the entire crew. The lot was the most diverse compliment of officers to ever serve on a Federation ship.

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Old July 18 2013, 01:02 PM   #21
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Worf has made a few questionable decisions in his career, such as firing on an unidentified ship as it decloaked, sacrificing a key intelligence asset for the life of his wife, giving up his post as UFP Ambassador to the Klingon Empire for some reason, all of which would go against him.

I would say that he would be well down on the list of possible officers to command an Enterprise.
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Old July 18 2013, 01:17 PM   #22
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

FFunctionalData wrote: View Post
I do not understand why Worf got a mark on his record. Sisko or whoever should have known better then to pair up a husband and wife on a mission that dangerous. Who would not have made the same decision Worf made.
Seems a valid point to me, but this is the same Federation that sent ships into battle against the Borg with civilians and families on board. Even the Ferengi ridiculed this behavior in TNG's Rascals when Riker tried defending it. The mindset is there that either Starfleet officers are expected to function regardless of their family's proximity, or they're just turning a blind eye to what seems obvious to us "primitive" humans that they can be a liability in a dangerous setting.
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Old July 19 2013, 02:07 AM   #23
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Worf has made a few questionable decisions in his career, such as firing on an unidentified ship as it decloaked, sacrificing a key intelligence asset for the life of his wife, giving up his post as UFP Ambassador to the Klingon Empire for some reason, all of which would go against him.
I don't think giving up his diplomatic position would have affected him in any way unless it happened due to disciplinary problems. People change careers all the time for reasons that aren't necessarily negative. Worf was more likely to face scrutiny for the other incidents you've mentioned, as well as his killing Duras against Picard's orders.

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Old July 19 2013, 02:17 AM   #24
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Seems a valid point to me, but this is the same Federation that sent ships into battle against the Borg with civilians and families on board.
There probably wasn't enough time to transfer the families onto a space station or a planet. The Borg were rushing to Earth in BoBW, and the Starfleet was gathering everything they could for a final defensive at Wolf 359. I think it's understandable what happened.

I think when the Starfleet DID have time and they know they will be going into battle, they have the families transferred someplace safe like the U.S.S Odyssey moving its families onto DS9 during the the first battle with the Dominion. I imagine families were no longer on the Starfleet ships during the Dominion War.

Last edited by Dream; July 19 2013 at 02:31 AM.
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Old July 19 2013, 02:26 AM   #25
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Dream wrote: View Post
There probably wasn't enough time to transfer the families onto a space station or a planet. The Borg were rushing to Earth in BoBW, and the Starfleet was gathering everything they could for a final defensive at Wolf 359. I think it's understandable what happened.
And given the Borg's propensity for obliterating anything in their path, who's to say leaving civilians on a planet would have kept them safe? Starfleet probably figured the safest place to be was aboard a vessel that could outrun any pursuers.

Dream wrote:
I think when the Starfleet DID have time and they know they will be going into battle, they have the families transferred someplace safe like the U.S.S Odyssey moving its families onto DS9 during the fight with the first battle with the Dominion. I imagine families were no long on the Starfleet ships during the Dominion War.
Agreed, though the Jem'Hadar had no problem attacking non-military targets. Moving families to another location was better than having them in the middle of a war zone, but it wasn't a guarantee of safety.

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Old July 21 2013, 04:28 AM   #26
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Dream wrote: View Post
There probably wasn't enough time to transfer the families onto a space station or a planet.
An option prior to Wolf359 would have been to load the families and other non-combatants (like bartenders and barbers) into a number of the ship's lifeboats and launch them into interstellar space, well short of the anticipated battle zone. Contacting Starfleet concerning the lifeboats location.

Sran wrote: View Post
Well, technically both Decker and Spock got the Enterprise as their first commands.
It's impossible to say if the Enterprise was Decker's first command. It might make more sense if he had first command a smaller vessel somewhere in his past.

It's a common supposition that Kirk commanded a destroyer type vessel before the Enterprise.

Spock's "first command" was that shuttlecraft that had nearly half is crew killed.

Dougherty's attempts to force-relocate the Ba'ku at the behest of the Son'a
Dougherty's orders came from the Federation Council, not the Sona.

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Old July 21 2013, 03:43 PM   #27
FKnight
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Technically, Decker never left the gate. I don't remember if Spock ever took the cadet crew on a training cruise, but when Kirk came aboard Spock insisted on relinquishing command. "First best destiny" or something.
For clarity's sake, Spock was in command of Enterprise during the training cruise and didn't relinquish command until after Kirk brought the Regula I situation to Spock's attention.

Funnily enough, had Spock remained in command, it's conceivable the shields would have been up during the first encounter with Khan
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Old July 21 2013, 05:50 PM   #28
Sran
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Spock's "first command" was that shuttlecraft that had nearly half is crew killed.
You're doing it again. You know full well that I'm referring to command of a starship, not an assignment that requires command of a small group for a short length of time. Don't be a smart-ass.

T'Gir wrote:
Dougherty's orders came from the Federation Council, not the Sona.
That's not what I said, and I think you know it. I'm going to ask you again to stop being a smart-ass. It's not funny. It's not cute. If you have something worthwhile to say in response to my posts, that's fine. But if you're going to play these stupid word games for your own amusement, find someone else with whom to waste your time.

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Old July 21 2013, 08:12 PM   #29
T'Girl
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

Sran wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Spock's "first command" was that shuttlecraft that had nearly half is crew killed.
You're doing it again.
Again?

Sran wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Sran wrote: View Post
Dougherty's attempts to force-relocate the Ba'ku at the behest of the Son'a
Dougherty's orders came from the Federation Council, not the Sona.
That's not what I said, and I think you know it.
"Behest" a command or order. So that is exactly what you said, and really Sran shouldn't you know that?

Admiral Dougherty was moving the Baku on the orders of the Federation Council, this is established in the movie's dialog. The Sona (again in dialog) thought the elaborate plan involving the duck blind study and the holoship was foolish, so neither of those actions were the Sona's idea.

I'm going to ask you again to stop being a smart-ass. It's not funny. It's not cute. If you have something worthwhile to say in response to my posts, that's fine.
Which is what I did. You were wrong concerning details of a movie, and I pointed it out.

But if you're going to play these stupid word games for your own amusement, find someone else with whom to waste your time.
No thank you.

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Old July 21 2013, 08:34 PM   #30
Sran
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Re: So did Worf's Change of Heart cost him command of the Enterprise?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
"Behest" a command or order. So that is exactly what you said, and really Sran shouldn't you know that?
I don't know. Should I? You apparently believe you're qualified to dictate to me what I should and should not know, so you should already have the answer to that question. Thank you for proving my point for me: you're a smart-ass and you're acting like it.

T'Girl wrote:
Admiral Dougherty was moving the Baku on the orders of the Federation Council, this is established in the movie's dialog.
Yes, I'm aware of that. Though I suspect you should already know this, as you've already stated that you know what I know.

T'Girl wrote:
The Sona (again in dialog) thought the elaborate plan involving the duck blind study and the holoship was foolish, so neither of those actions were the Sona's idea.
Once again, I'm aware of this. I never said that the Son'a were responsible for either the holo-ship or the duckblind. But congratulations on putting words in my mouth again.

T'Girl wrote:
Which is what I did. You were wrong concerning details of a movie, and I pointed it out.
No. I was wrong in how I worded a previous post. I know that Admiral Dougherty was acting on orders from the Federation Council because Riker and LaForge had to discuss the situation with them to get them to change their mind about the Ba'ku. And I'm pointing this out to you, as I doubt you're capable of reading between the lines.

Now, are you ready to join the rest of society, or do you need more time to masturbate in public?

--Sran
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