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Old July 16 2013, 07:49 PM   #361
kirk55555
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

Christopher wrote: View Post
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Christopher wrote: View Post
Exactly. Why do it the same way it's already been done before? Wouldn't that get boring eventually? Where's the fun of doing a new series if it doesn't give us fresh approaches to the characters and ideas?
But, at the same time, the whole point of a Batman show is that you're watching Batman. I personally prefer stuff based on comics to be fairly close to the source material.
Yes, but the source material for Batman has been extremely broad and eclectic. Originally he was a pulp-style gun-toting vigilante; then he became a lighter, more law-abiding father figure; then he became a campy hero having wild and zany sci-fi adventures; then he became a more serious detective character but still a romanticized one who often had Bond-style globetrotting adventures; then later he appeared in an alternate-future tale that portrayed him as a dark avenger in an ultraviolent dystopia, and the mainstream comics increasingly imitated that; and so on.

Batman has been so many different things in the history of the comics that virtually every adaptation is close to some part of the source material -- just different parts. The Adam West sitcom was, contrary to popular belief, an extremely faithful translation of the style of the comics from the early to mid-'60s. B:TAS was a distillation of Batman stories from the '70s through the '90s. The Brave and the Bold was a celebration of the Silver-Age comics of the '50s and '60s. And so on. This series feels like it draws partly on the detective-style Batman of the '70s (the producers have cited '70s procedurals as a major influence) and partly on Geoff Johns and Gary Frank's Batman: Earth One (which portrays a very similar version of Alfred), with villains drawn from all over -- Pyg and Toad from Grant Morrison's recent run, Magpie from the John Byrne era in the '80s, Anarky from the '90s, etc.
Well, it just didn't feel very Batman to me. Batman has been many things, but he's been fairly consistant in tone in comics for awhile now. It all depends on what the show is trying to do. Brave and The Bold was awesome, but it wasn't going for serious, it had its own thing and it did it pretty much perfectly. But, for a more serious Batman show thats trying to tell a continuing story, there are certain things I want from a show like that. BTB doesn't seem to have very many. The "villains drawn from all over" just feel like the show being obscure for the sake of being different.

Christopher wrote: View Post
See, I don't even understand that sentence, because "other Batman shows" have been extremely opposed to one another in many ways. Is this show the opposite of, say, The Brave and the Bold or Batman '66? Yes, because it's more serious and dramatic. But that makes it more similar to B:TAS than any other Batman show, while still being pleasantly distinct from it.
This show isn't very close to B:TAS, and it never could be.


Christopher wrote: View Post
How can you possibly judge that when you haven't even seen her in that role yet? She didn't even meet Bruce until the last 20 seconds of the episode.
I already know I don't like her in the role. Its a stupid idea, and


Christopher wrote: View Post
Given that Batman has already successfully been everything from Frank Miller Batman to Adam West Batman, I'm not sure how it's possible for him to be the "anti-Batman." Well, unless he becomes a criminal and starts killing people.
Honestly, the only thing probably keeping them from that is the TV rating and being on Cartoon network. I wouldn't be surprised to learn they would do that if they could.

Christopher wrote: View Post
That is actually part of what annoys me about Katana. Her presence means probably no Batgirl at all, and maybe no Robin, atleast for the first season, and thats just stupid.
B:TAS used Robin infrequently and Batgirl only twice (though they were more commonly used in TNBA). The Batman introduced Batgirl in season 3 and Robin in season 4. The Brave and the Bold used Robin in six episodes and Batgirl in two. So I guess those shows were stupid too. Not to mention the Nolan movies, which managed to get through a whole trilogy with neither Robin nor Batgirl.
Well, the Nolan movies (atleast 2 & 3) are the worst superhero movies ever made (including Catwoman, Superman IV, FF 2, etc) so they really aren't something to bring up in connection to good batman. Also, you're right about the other shows, but the point is BTB has given him a partner, a stupid one that makes seeing the real Batman sidekicks unlikely, which is just another reason for me to hate the choice. I'd rather have solo Batman over batman and Katana.

Christopher wrote: View Post
He's not "dealing with a disability", he's got a temporary leg injury, and since he's probably not even 60 he'll be ok in a few months.
Maybe, maybe not. Think about it from a storytelling perspective. Alfred was given this injury in order to give Katana a reason to be there. True, it could be that he'll recover and they'll find a new reason for Katana to stay on the team, but it could also be that the role he's in at the end of the pilot is the role he's meant to have for the series as a whole, and so his loss of mobility is going to be a defining part of his characterization. I think that could offer some interesting possibilities for character exploration, and I think Watson and Murakami have already proven to me that they're interested in exploring and developing these characters in thoughtful ways. This pilot made clear that Alfred's primary goal is protecting Batman, and the basis of drama is giving characters obstacles to the fulfillment of their goals. Having Alfred want to be able to protect Batman physically but being unable to do so is good drama.
Well, we have to agree to disagree with that. Since I think the idea of Alfred physically protecting Batman to be idiotic in general (it could work if Batman is injured, the batcave is under attack, and Alfred throws himself in front of an enemy, but thats for a show with a real, normal alfred, not Alfred with Hulk Hogan's body) I don't think it will lead to anything interesting.
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Old July 16 2013, 07:50 PM   #362
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

I'd hardly call this Alfred a "hulking bruiser". He was buff looking yes but nothing like that description. This is keeping in the tradition of attempting new takes on old characters, and taking from different source materials in order to do that as Christopher stated earlier.


Also Alfred has been shown as being more than just the butler before. We've already explained numerous times in this thread his background and character history. He isn't JUST the butler. He is much more than that. Especially to Bruce.
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Old July 16 2013, 07:57 PM   #363
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Well, it just didn't feel very Batman to me. Batman has been many things, but he's been fairly consistant in tone in comics for awhile now. It all depends on what the show is trying to do. Brave and The Bold was awesome, but it wasn't going for serious, it had its own thing and it did it pretty much perfectly. But, for a more serious Batman show thats trying to tell a continuing story, there are certain things I want from a show like that. BTB doesn't seem to have very many. The "villains drawn from all over" just feel like the show being obscure for the sake of being different.
Well, I like it, because I don't read the comics. I'm not familiar with the comics Batman, his extended teammates, or anything related. BtB is the first I'd heard of Professor Pyg, Mr. Toad, or Katana. Since the producers are aiming for introducing more comics characters into the TV medium, I guess I'm their target audience, and not you.


Well, the Nolan movies (atleast 2 & 3) are the worst superhero movies ever made (including Catwoman, Superman IV, FF 2, etc) so they really aren't something to bring up in connection to good batman.
Are they "worst superhero movies ever made" because they're more crime dramas than anything? Because I have no idea what a "real" superhero movie would be. The Nolan movies not being superhero movies may explain why they did so well with the rest of us, who aren't dedicated comic superhero fans!
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Old July 16 2013, 08:20 PM   #364
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

Technically, their target audience is kids about 7 years old. That didn't stop Justice League and other shows from being awesome, and to be fair I don't feel like BTB was too kid oriented. Still, I don't think the show is made for people that no absolutely nothing about Batman (not that there is a huge number of people like that, I'm fairly certain even little kids know basic stuff about him), atleast specifically. No TV show based off a preexisting character wants to confuse new watchers. This show's big problem is that it seems like they just dislike normal batman stuff, so they'll do anything but normal Batman things. I think thats a really screwed up way of doing things, and i think the show will suffer because of it. I really wouldn't be surprised if this show ends up being the worst Batman show. I don't want it to, and the first episode didn't go in that direction, but its being made by people i'
m starting to think hate Batman. If i didn't know the crew working on it, i'd assume no one working on this show had ever worked on anything DC related. This is definately a very poor replacement for Young Justice (although its still better than TT Go!). Not a bad show (so far) but of the DC cartoons that aren't bad, so far its the weakest, especially in its premise and way of doing things.

I'm not getting into a Nolan discussion. I'll just say that The dark Knight is my most hated movie of all time, and easily the worst superhero movie ever. Rises wasn't any better, but I don't have as much hate because at that point I knew what to expect. They're both horrible movies, and definately the worst superhero movies I've ever seen (Begins was just mediocre).
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Old July 16 2013, 08:35 PM   #365
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

Oh good Lord - no one who "hates" Batman would be involved in making a show about Batman! That's inane!
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Old July 16 2013, 09:16 PM   #366
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Well, it just didn't feel very Batman to me.
It felt to me like a very solid and interesting interpretation of Batman. I mean, the way he handled that first fight scene -- knowing exactly what the hood was going to do next, intimidating him by telling him that he knew, popping a dislocated shoulder back in and barely letting it slow him down -- all classic Batman.


But, for a more serious Batman show thats trying to tell a continuing story, there are certain things I want from a show like that. BTB doesn't seem to have very many.
Operative word, "seem." You've seen one episode. Heck, you were damning it before you'd seen any episodes. You keep assuming you can judge things before you have the facts. It only works if you do it the other way around.


The "villains drawn from all over" just feel like the show being obscure for the sake of being different.
Again, I'm bewildered by the assumption that being different is not exactly the right thing to do. Why redo what's already been done?


This show isn't very close to B:TAS, and it never could be.
In specifics, of course not, nor should it try to be. Again, it wouldn't be worthwhile if it weren't different and new. But in its maturity, sophistication, and tone, it feels more on a par with B:TAS than any subsequent Batman-solo series to date.


Honestly, the only thing probably keeping them from that is the TV rating and being on Cartoon network. I wouldn't be surprised to learn they would do that if they could.
I have no idea why you'd assume that.


Also, you're right about the other shows, but the point is BTB has given him a partner, a stupid one that makes seeing the real Batman sidekicks unlikely, which is just another reason for me to hate the choice. I'd rather have solo Batman over batman and Katana.
You're entitled not to watch the show if you don't want to, but I don't know why you'd think Katana is "stupid" just because she's not what you've seen before. If anything, trying new things is a mark of intelligence, not stupidity. You don't have to agree with other people's creative choices, but it's frankly very childish to insult their intelligence just because you would've made a different choice.

And I'd remind you that just a few weeks ago you were insisting that The Batman was the stupidest Batman show you'd ever seen, but you opened your mind enough to consider evidence to the contrary and now you've reconsidered, at least somewhat.


Well, we have to agree to disagree with that. Since I think the idea of Alfred physically protecting Batman to be idiotic in general (it could work if Batman is injured, the batcave is under attack, and Alfred throws himself in front of an enemy, but thats for a show with a real, normal alfred, not Alfred with Hulk Hogan's body) I don't think it will lead to anything interesting.
But that's exactly what's interesting here -- the incongruity between Alfred's (and now Katana's) nominal, public role as Bruce Wayne's bodyguard and the underlying truth that nobody on the planet needs a bodyguard less -- yet practically nobody puts himself more constantly in danger. So that puts Alfred in a frustrating position, because he feels a duty to protect someone who's beyond his ability to protect. Good drama comes from the conflict between a character's goals and their circumstances. That's why I think that what Watson and Murakami are going for here is an examination of Alfred's struggle to define his role in Bruce's life -- paralleling their exploration of Bruce's own struggle with his dual identity.

I would call attention to the character of Diggle on Arrow -- nominally Oliver Queen's bodyguard, but ending up being the Arrow's sidekick, and having to balance his duty to serve the Arrow's mission with his duty and friendship toward Oliver. It works there, and it can work here.


Admiral_Young wrote: View Post
I'd hardly call this Alfred a "hulking bruiser". He was buff looking yes but nothing like that description.
Indeed. It's in keeping with the way many animated shows exaggerate the proportions of the male body, giving them extra-wide shoulders and rib cages. Green Lantern: TAS took that to an extreme degree, giving Hal Jordan an enormous upper body, even though a Green Lantern doesn't exactly need a lot of physical strength, and even though a test pilot built like that would have a hard time getting into a cockpit. It's just caricature.


kirk55555 wrote: View Post
This show's big problem is that it seems like they just dislike normal batman stuff, so they'll do anything but normal Batman things.
That's nonsense. As I've told you, Glen Murakami has been working on DC/Warner Bros.' Batman productions for two decades now, since he was a storyboard artist on B:TAS. And the show's executive producer Sam Register has been the executive in charge of nearly every Batman-related WB production since The Batman. So they have plenty of experience working with what you'd call "normal Batman things." It's absurd to think they'd dislike them.

But that's just it. Those things have been done, and done well. Why compete with those past successes by trying to do the same things over again? It's not that they dislike those things, it's that they're satisfied with what's been done with them in the past, and rather than just imitate them, they're trying to do something new that hopefully will be just as good.

Besides, what defines "normal" for you? What's been on TV or film before? A lot of the villains we'll be seeing have been major recurring foes in the comics over the course of years; they just haven't been picked up by any screen adaptation yet, and many of them are arguably overdue for an appearance. Pyg and Toad are among the most prominent, defining villains of Grant Morrison's lengthy tenure on Batman. Anyone who's been reading Batman comics over the past 5-6 years would consider them an entirely "normal" presence in a Batman story.
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Old July 16 2013, 09:50 PM   #367
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

Thought the first episode was pretty decent, and the dynamic between Bruce and this Katanna girl seems like it could have promise.... but at the same time I find myself having had a hard time really getting excited about any of it. After BTAS, The Batman, and countless DTV movies, this character and his world is just starting to feel a bit too tired and familiar to me.

Of course I realize I'm not exactly the target demographic for this show, and to most kids it probably does seem fresh and new.
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Old July 16 2013, 10:19 PM   #368
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

Christopher wrote: View Post
Yeah... it's weird that they censored the guns but were able to have characters talk about killing people and show characters suffering injuries on camera.

They censored the guns due to the Colorado shootings

http://variety.com/2012/tv/news/warn...on-1118057164/


Producers of the series were asked by WB Animation executive VP Sam Register to scrutinize depictions of weapons on the program, which isn’t expected to debut on the cable network until next year.
An unspecified number of alterations were made to some designs and situations on the series to minimize the amount of weapon imagery deemed too realistic.
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Old July 16 2013, 10:21 PM   #369
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

^Yes, I know that's why the censored the guns, and I said as much earlier in the thread. My point is that, given that they censored the guns, it's weird that they didn't also censor the references to killing and the onscreen injuries. It seems an arbitrarily inconsistent treatment of violence.

davejames wrote: View Post
After BTAS, The Batman, and countless DTV movies, this character and his world is just starting to feel a bit too tired and familiar to me.
Thank you. You just made the best argument for why they're doing things like reinterpreting Alfred and featuring different villains. It's so it won't be just the same familiar thing again.


Of course I realize I'm not exactly the target demographic for this show, and to most kids it probably does seem fresh and new.
It doesn't feel like a kids' show to me. Aside from the restriction on showing realistic guns, it feels like one of CN's older-skewing shows, about on a level with something like Green Lantern or Young Justice.
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Old July 16 2013, 11:07 PM   #370
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

Christopher wrote: View Post
^What I mean is that your standards of "beyond recognition" are far narrower than mine. I still recognize this Alfred. The emphasis has shifted, but that's superficial. His core personality, his motivation, his relationship with Bruce, is what makes him Alfred -- not what job he holds or how he's built physically.
Well, I'm more of a purist, that's for sure. But if you saw that clip of that was posted earlier with no foreknowledge of the format of this show (and assuming the name Alfred wasn't mentioned), you think you would have recognized that character as Alfred? I sure wouldn't have.
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Old July 16 2013, 11:12 PM   #371
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

What does "pure" mean for characters that have been around for decades and been explored in various media? Who is the "pure Alfred"?
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Old July 16 2013, 11:17 PM   #372
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

Bruce's butler.
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Old July 16 2013, 11:21 PM   #373
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

Yeah, well then that is exactly who the Alfred in BtB is - Bruce's butler. But you're still not satisfied.
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Old July 16 2013, 11:24 PM   #374
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

RJDiogenes wrote: View Post
Well, I'm more of a purist, that's for sure. But if you saw that clip of that was posted earlier with no foreknowledge of the format of this show (and assuming the name Alfred wasn't mentioned), you think you would have recognized that character as Alfred? I sure wouldn't have.
I reject the question, because it's unfair to judge an entire show based on a single clip. It's bad decision-making to assess a data point in isolation without understanding its context.

Also, you're still fixated on the superficial, the kind of thing you can perceive at first glance. As I've tried to tell you, what defines the essence of a character is what's beneath the surface. Sometimes there can be great satisfaction in coming upon something initially unfamiliar and then recognizing the essence that lies beneath it.


Pavonis wrote: View Post
What does "pure" mean for characters that have been around for decades and been explored in various media? Who is the "pure Alfred"?
Exactly. The "pure" Alfred would be the guy seen in the first segment of this column: A chubby, bumbling wannabe detective who came to work for Bruce without even knowing he was Batman, who had a backup feature where he tried to solve crimes and accidentally stumbled upon the solutions, and whose surname was probably Jarvis.
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Old July 16 2013, 11:28 PM   #375
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Re: "Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

The only issue I had with this Alfred is he seemed a little young. He almost seemed more like an older brother or old Army buddy of Bruce's than a father or mentor figure.
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