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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old July 15 2013, 12:01 PM   #31
MacLeod
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Re: So the EMH Never Heard of the Dominion

Given the timeline there is no reason to think knowledge about the Dominionwas widespread. Starfleet might still have been analysing the data and reports before issing a commuinqué about them. As Voyager's mission was to the Badlands there was no reason for her to be briefed on them. As for dominion weapons having an anti-coagulate. Had anyone been shot with that setting by the time VOY left? besides wouldn't an EMH be programmed to deal with wounds that hadn't coagulated?
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Old July 15 2013, 12:20 PM   #32
Timo
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Re: So the EMH Never Heard of the Dominion

There is subspace communication that can travel all the way across Federation space much faster than warp travel, and you know that it would have made the front page on the 'Federation news service'.
Curiously, when Jake Sisko becomes a FNS reporter, this seems to represent a major breakthrough for the organization - basically, this kid is their first opening into the secret world of DS9! It wouldn't be difficult to imagine that Starfleet would wish to keep the Dominion thing under wraps for a while, and DS9 would be the ideal location for that.

So a Galaxy class starship goes missing? Well, it happened in the direction of Bajor, a distant backwater where news really don't travel all that fast... Perhaps she just got delayed, or found a Mysterionite homeworld or something, and will turn up later again?

The interesting thing about the Dominion threat is that it actually got mellowed down soon after the Voyager left. Contrary to what Sisko was told, there was no major Dominion presence on the Gamma side of the wormhole; there were neither diplomatic nor military overtures to secure passage through the wormhole (apparently because the VR interrogation of Sisko and his crew had revealed the futility of such things); Dominion spies on the Alpha side were either not all that numerous, or weren't engaged in active sabotage after all; and it would not be long before Starfleet vessels gained the ability to defend themselves against phased polaron beams. But right after "Jem'Hadar" and "The Search", the Dominion would be Starfleet's greatest threat...

...And Janeway would just have been told that this threat would be stopped by collapsing the wormhole, by the very man who had already collapsed the wormhole once! So out of all the options available for a journey home, the ones involving the Bajoran wormhole were right out.

Would the EMH be told this much? No particular reason why he should. After all, the ship was not headed towards a confrontation with the Dominion - this decision had been made early on, long before the EMH became a person.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old July 15 2013, 03:12 PM   #33
Christopher
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Re: So the EMH Never Heard of the Dominion

Infern0 wrote: View Post
When the doctor became sentient, he was an intellectual man, I find it rather unlikely he wouldn't keep up with the news from back home.
What news? Remember, they were completely out of touch with the Alpha Quadrant until "Message in a Bottle."

Not to mention that the AQ was hardly his home; he had no memories prior to his activation in the Delta Quadrant. His home was Voyager.


Dream wrote: View Post
Doesn't mean Janeway couldn't have ordered timed explosives to be made.
And given the Kazon a chance to disarm them before they blew? No. She felt responsible for putting the Ocampa in danger. She was going to make absolutely sure the Array didn't fall into Kazon hands, not settle for half measures.
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Old July 15 2013, 05:21 PM   #34
Anwar
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Re: So the EMH Never Heard of the Dominion

Dream wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
I wish folks would pay attention more, Timed Explosives wouldn't have worked. This was mentioned WITHIN the episode.
No, the array's self-destruct system was damaged. Doesn't mean Janeway couldn't have ordered timed explosives to be made.
It would've taken them hours to get the Array working right to send them home, during which time the Kazon would return with reinforcements and hit them with everything they had until they took both Voyager and the Array. It was a choice between "Fight and lose everything" or "Blow it up now and get out of here"; Going home with it wasn't really an option.

Plus, being pulled there killed a lot of people and damaged the ship, so being sent back the same way would kill people too.

The real problem was that the WRITERS forgot about this and acted like it was her fault later on.
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Old July 15 2013, 05:44 PM   #35
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Re: So the EMH Never Heard of the Dominion

Anwar wrote: View Post
The real problem was that the WRITERS forgot about this and acted like it was her fault later on.
I don't agree. What writers have characters believe is not necessarily the same thing as what the writers believe. The writers had Janeway feel responsible for stranding her crew -- but that's just part of the same highly developed sense of responsibility that made her decide to destroy the Array in the first place. They weren't saying it was true, they were saying it was consistent with her personality to feel that way about it.
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Old July 15 2013, 09:00 PM   #36
Edit_XYZ
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Re: So the EMH Never Heard of the Dominion

Christopher wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post
Doesn't mean Janeway couldn't have ordered timed explosives to be made.
And given the Kazon a chance to disarm them before they blew? No. She felt responsible for putting the Ocampa in danger. She was going to make absolutely sure the Array didn't fall into Kazon hands, not settle for half measures.
It's far easier for the kazon to fight Voyager in a ship-to-ship battle - they had ships, not means to teleport into the array; heavy weapons, not knowledge on how to bypass starfleet protection measures; etc - than to disarm starfleet explosives (aka actually get into the array&disarm alien tech before the explosives detonated).
If the Kazon were actually competent enough to disarm starfleet explosives in time, they could have prevented Voyager from destroying the array whatever the method attempted.
Rationalisations such as the quoted one are transparently convoluted fannon.


Anwar - your explanations can't even reach the above level - Tuvok even asked Janeway if he should activate the array; the array brought many ships to it before without causing destruction for the natives.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; July 15 2013 at 10:07 PM.
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Old July 15 2013, 09:26 PM   #37
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Re: So the EMH Never Heard of the Dominion

The Kazon don't have transporters, but that doesn't mean they don't have a way to board the Array. And with Voyager's brief contact with the Kazon, how is Janeway supposed to know what the Kazon can or cannot do? They don't have easy access to water, but they have starships. That's a bizarre combination of technology that makes it difficult to predict else what they might be able to do or what other technology they may be weilding. Sure, we learned later that they're basically running their former master's ships, and probably doing only a passable job of maintaining them, but in the incident at the Array, how can Janeway legitimately risk leaving timed explosives behind when hostiles are right there, actively seeking to capture it, and possibly capable of thwarting her attempt to deny it to them?
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Old July 15 2013, 09:29 PM   #38
Timo
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Re: So the EMH Never Heard of the Dominion

Edit, I don't see how your drivel warrants even the electrons it cruelly consumed. There's nothing to prevent the Kazon from boarding by completely conventional methods, and then e.g. throwing the explosives out of the nearest hole in the wall (or if none present themselves, arranging for one). These folks supposedly know how to fight, and lack of transporters is something they have learned to live with.

Among Janeway's good reasons for not attempting a return using Caretaker's suspect machinery could very well be the complete lack of evidence on it ever returning anybody to Alpha Quadrant alive. Odds of it returning even half the crew on a good day don't seem promising from what Janeway can see, and this was not a good day. Doesn't mean Tuvok shouldn't suggest such a course of action, as it obviously is either Scylla or Charybdis.

They don't have easy access to water, but they have starships.
And that basically comes down to the definition of "them". The Kazon are enemies to the Kazon: going for water will mean giving up prime positions over the Ocampa treasure for the small group down on the planet.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old July 15 2013, 09:42 PM   #39
MacLeod
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Re: So the EMH Never Heard of the Dominion

We could spend an age deabting on what Janeway could/couldn't have done in "Caretaker."

For example leave timed explosives behind enclosed in a forcefield that was set to collpase a few microseconds before the explosives detoned and a few seconds after the return mechanism had been activated.

But we'll just end up going round in circles, and end up right where we started,
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Old July 15 2013, 10:01 PM   #40
Edit_XYZ
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Re: So the EMH Never Heard of the Dominion

Timo wrote: View Post
Edit, I don't see how your drivel warrants even the electrons it cruelly consumed. There's nothing to prevent the Kazon from boarding by completely conventional methods, and then e.g. throwing the explosives out of the nearest hole in the wall (or if none present themselves, arranging for one). These folks supposedly know how to fight, and lack of transporters is something they have learned to live with.
WHICH TAKES TIME - the kazon must send shuttles, seal an airlock on the array, blow up the array's hatch, etc. A lot more time than the exceptionally convenient transporter, which Janeway knows the kazon don't have.

And there's still that explosive to deactivate.
BTW - countermeasures against physically moving the explosives are a reality today; and they're supposed not to exist in 3 centuries? How incompetent do you want to make starfleet in order to cover up a plot-hole, Timo?

But all that's not what you want to hear, yes?
And you have no problem coming up with actual convoluted drivel in order to show that an obvious plot-hole is no such thing.

Among Janeway's good reasons for not attempting a return using Caretaker's suspect machinery could very well be the complete lack of evidence on it ever returning anybody to Alpha Quadrant alive. Odds of it returning even half the crew on a good day don't seem promising from what Janeway can see, and this was not a good day. Doesn't mean Tuvok shouldn't suggest such a course of action, as it obviously is either Scylla or Charybdis.
Except that's not why Janeway made her decision - she mentioned her motive directly: she didn't use the array because she wanted to destroy it and protect the natives.
Not because she thought it was more dangerous than being stranded in the delta quadrant or whatever.
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Old July 16 2013, 12:03 AM   #41
Shatna
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Re: So the EMH Never Heard of the Dominion

Timo wrote: View Post
Edit, I don't see how your drivel warrants even the electrons it cruelly consumed.
Timo Saloniemi
While this is a clever turn of phrase on its own, it's also insulting and completely uncalled for. It ain't gonna fly with the new sheriff (that's me). Tone it down please.
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Old July 16 2013, 02:46 AM   #42
JirinPanthosa
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Re: So the EMH Never Heard of the Dominion

The wormhole was a portal to the Gamma Quadrant. Everybody in the Federation would have been excited about a completely new frontier. Barring section 31 the Federation is not a secretive organization. The destruction of the Odyssey may have been classified, but if you recall DS9 at the beginning of season 3, people were leaving DS9 because it was so dangerous. If civilians knew about it, then a starship that stopped at DS9 right before being sent to the DQ would know that the Dominion exists and it is dangerous.

They just weren't '#1 threat to the Federation' at the time, so Voyager might shove them into the back of their present anxieties.
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Old July 16 2013, 03:00 AM   #43
Sran
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Re: So the EMH Never Heard of the Dominion

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
The destruction of the Odyssey may have been classified, but if you recall DS9 at the beginning of season 3, people were leaving DS9 because it was so dangerous. If civilians knew about it, then a starship that stopped at DS9 right before being sent to the DQ would know that the Dominion exists and it is dangerous.
Not necessarily. The civilians who left DS9 were people who lived on the space station, so they were most likely aware of the Dominion because of the events of both "The Jem'Hadar" and "The Search." Sisko was concerned about possibility of a Dominion attack on the station if a fleet tried to enter the Alpha Quadrant and almost certainly would have offered civilians the chance to leave the station for their own safety.

Voyager was nowhere near DS9 until she was trying to track down the Maquis. Janeway probably read Sisko's reports on the region to gain insight into the Maquis and their conflict with the Cardassians. That Janeway had experience with the Cardassians herself would have helped matters, but there's no way to know how up-to-date her knowledge was. It's not clear if Janeway and Sisko ever spoke to each other because the latter doesn't appear in "Caretaker." He might have told her about the Dominion, but we can't know for sure.

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Old July 16 2013, 03:24 AM   #44
Pavonis
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Re: So the EMH Never Heard of the Dominion

If Janeway and Sisko spoke, and there's no reason to think they didn't, why would the Dominion come up? Janeway was on a search-and-rescue mission for Tuvok, with capturing Chakotay et al. a secondary concern. The relevant intelligence debriefing would be on known Maquis activity and bases in the Badlands. When and why would the Dominion be a topic necessary to discuss?
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Old July 16 2013, 03:56 AM   #45
JirinPanthosa
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Re: So the EMH Never Heard of the Dominion

It's likely Sisko formally welcomed Janeway to the station but unlikely they talked about the Dominion.

But there's no reason not to think the Dominion threat was common knowledge in the Federation. The GQ would have been the hot topic everybody is space-tweeting about since the wormhole was discovered. Of course everyone knew.
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