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View Poll Results: Who would have won ultimately?
UFP 11 55.00%
Klingons 3 15.00%
Stalemate 6 30.00%
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll

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Old July 14 2013, 06:47 AM   #31
Anwar
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

Yar probably meant that the USS Galaxy was a prototype, a test model, whereas the Enterprise-D was the first normal model type of that ship class. The first "true" completed version of the design whereas the prototype was still a prototype.
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Old July 14 2013, 07:20 AM   #32
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Different timeline, but the same resources. Both Starfleet and the KDF were fielding the same ships in battle. Three of the big BOPs were a match for a Galaxy.

Not the same resources. The conflict started in 2346, or there abouts. Up to that point, Starfleet hadn't seen a lot of ongoing combat for a while, AFAWK. They weren't set up for a big conflict at all. While Klingons are basicly always prepared for a big conflict, it's part of their culture.

In 2372, things are different for Starfleet. They encountered the Borg, and the Dominion, and realized just how seriously underpowered they were. Thing started to change, ships like the Defiant and Prometheus were designed, they came up with pulse phasers and quantum torpedoes. So yeah, they stand a much better change against the Klingons then they would in 2346.
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Old July 14 2013, 03:50 PM   #33
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

There's no particular reason that the Enterprise couldn't have been completed first if the Galaxy was delayed during construction. For that matter, there's no reason there would have to be a USS Galaxy at all - there' a long history of classes that aren't named after the first ship.
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Old July 14 2013, 05:32 PM   #34
Sran
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

The Librarian wrote: View Post
There's no particular reason that the Enterprise couldn't have been completed first if the Galaxy was delayed during construction. For that matter, there's no reason there would have to be a USS Galaxy at all - there' a long history of classes that aren't named after the first ship.
That seems to have been the case in the twenty third century, but by the time Picard was commanding the Enterprise, most ship classes were named for the first vessel of their kind.

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Old July 14 2013, 06:59 PM   #35
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

We don't know enough about the war in YE to say anything about the significance of Starfleet's coming surrender. They might have been doing pretty well militarily, but the folks back home were getting tired of it. Maybe it started over some border systems, and the Tellarites were getting fed up with supporting a long conflict over them, and were making noise to leave the Federation. We don't know that a surrender would be unconditional, or just the feds handing over a few "criminals."
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Old July 14 2013, 07:35 PM   #36
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

Plus the federation has had years to beef up its military power in response to the Borg and Dominion kicking their asses.
The Klingon knew about the dominion, plus seeing as there are plenty of kllingon borg drones it seems they have meet the borg two.
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Old July 14 2013, 08:04 PM   #37
Anwar
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

The Klingons in the DS9 war had more advanced tech and ships too, like the Negh'Var.
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Old July 14 2013, 08:44 PM   #38
Timo
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

Also, in "The Way of the Warrior," a task force of nine starships seemed to pose a serious threat to several dozen Klingon warships.
I don't think the military threat of the ships was a factor as such. Rather, these ships would be the official entry of Starfleet into the fray, transforming the whole situation politically.

DS9 was in Gowron's propaganda harboring Changelings and no doubt itself already co-opted by the Dominion. It's status was vague to begin with: formally, the Klingons were dealing with Bajorans there, and had nothing to fear from them in terms of retribution. Starfleet was not yet involved, not according to Gowron. Indeed, if he could kill Sisko, he could say that Starfleet had never betrayed the Empire by leaking secrets to Cardassia - only a now-dead Dominion lackey had done so. And the beneficial alliance could continue.

However, fresh ships coming from Federation space could not be claimed to be Dominion assets, not without claiming that the UFP had already been corrupted by the Dominion. And that claim would be much more difficult to support than the one that the secretive Cardassian Union had become Dominion property.

Six ships would simply be too many to be made to just disappear, even if far too few to actually offer resistance to the Klingon forces. And for this reason Gowron could not fight them. He would very much have preferred to have DS9 destroyed before such a political intervention, and so would "Martok", but alas, no such luck.

As for a Klingon-Federation war taken to its conclusion, I'd think Klingons would actually be disinterested in winning. I mean, they love local victories, the total humiliation of the enemy, glorious looting, and so forth. But they have never shown a tendency towards the total annihilation of the enemy (save for Tribbles). For a warrior culture, total war is probably unthinkable...

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Old July 14 2013, 09:28 PM   #39
jmampilly
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

I simply don't understand how a warrior culture could develop advanced technology. Yes, the Klingons would probably dump lots of resources into weapons development, but given that most Klingons are obsessed with being warriors, why would any be willing to sit behind a desk and research? The Federation's culture promotes research, and as such, would have far more advanced ships.
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Old July 14 2013, 09:30 PM   #40
Timo
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

but given that most Klingons are obsessed with being warriors
It's probably more like "given that most obsessed Klingons are warriors"...

The warrior part of the population is simply the most visible and obnoxious one, to outsiders at least.

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Old July 14 2013, 10:03 PM   #41
Anwar
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

jmampilly wrote: View Post
I simply don't understand how a warrior culture could develop advanced technology. Yes, the Klingons would probably dump lots of resources into weapons development, but given that most Klingons are obsessed with being warriors, why would any be willing to sit behind a desk and research? The Federation's culture promotes research, and as such, would have far more advanced ships.
It's just that the Klingons we often see are the warriors and the particularly obsessed warriors at that. We've seen others, like Klingon scientists and lawyers and stuff. They're there, we just don't see them because the writers don't focus on them much.
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Old July 14 2013, 10:05 PM   #42
Pavonis
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

We've seen Klingon scientists, lawyers, and even a nanny. But considering the main focus on Star Trek is Starfleet, we're fortunate to even have a glimpse of Klingon civilians when we barely see Federation civilians.
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Old July 15 2013, 03:28 AM   #43
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

Anwar wrote: View Post
jmampilly wrote: View Post
I simply don't understand how a warrior culture could develop advanced technology. Yes, the Klingons would probably dump lots of resources into weapons development, but given that most Klingons are obsessed with being warriors, why would any be willing to sit behind a desk and research? The Federation's culture promotes research, and as such, would have far more advanced ships.
It's just that the Klingons we often see are the warriors and the particularly obsessed warriors at that. We've seen others, like Klingon scientists and lawyers and stuff. They're there, we just don't see them because the writers don't focus on them much.
In the Next Generation episode "Suspicions," Dr. Crusher talks about a Klingon scientist who is "defensive of her work, because her career choice isn't respected in Klingon society." ...This would indicate that yes, scientists exist, but they aren't respected in Klingon society.

As a result, the Klingon Empire should have inferior technology to the Federation, given that it doesn't have many scientists.
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Old July 15 2013, 03:50 AM   #44
Anwar
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

jmampilly wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
jmampilly wrote: View Post
I simply don't understand how a warrior culture could develop advanced technology. Yes, the Klingons would probably dump lots of resources into weapons development, but given that most Klingons are obsessed with being warriors, why would any be willing to sit behind a desk and research? The Federation's culture promotes research, and as such, would have far more advanced ships.
It's just that the Klingons we often see are the warriors and the particularly obsessed warriors at that. We've seen others, like Klingon scientists and lawyers and stuff. They're there, we just don't see them because the writers don't focus on them much.
In the Next Generation episode "Suspicions," Dr. Crusher talks about a Klingon scientist who is "defensive of her work, because her career choice isn't respected in Klingon society." ...This would indicate that yes, scientists exist, but they aren't respected in Klingon society.

As a result, the Klingon Empire should have inferior technology to the Federation, given that it doesn't have many scientists.
No one looked down on the Klingon Chef, or the Klingon Lawyer, or the Klingon Opera Singers either.

Maybe it was just her particular research that wasn't respected.
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Old July 15 2013, 04:21 AM   #45
Pavonis
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Re: Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3

Klingons love opera singers. Hell I think they only go to war to inspire new operas! But how much complexity is there to their cuisine? They seem to only eat gagh of various sizes. The chef probably gets more respect outside of the empire than within it. And lawyers are just court warriors - they fight with words rather than swords.

Anyway, there's more to career choice than the amount of respect society has for that career.
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