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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old July 10 2013, 08:05 AM   #76
KarmicCurse
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Re: Genesis Question

Really? My interpretation of that exchange in the movie, and all the scenes in which they're determined to keep Genesis out of the military, are that she does not believe in altering a planet with any existing potential for life with Genesis. I never read it as concern over another variable in the experiment. I don't see what difference it would make what's on the planet from a technical point of view.
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Old July 10 2013, 08:30 PM   #77
Timo
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Re: Genesis Question

The Marcuses work to change the world, by changing worlds. It's not exactly a "preservation" philosophy. Plus, they are in the business of creating potential for life, so what's the point of worrying about loss of such potential in Genesis detonations? There's no loss!

What's on the planet is controlled circumstances. Without those, science is invalid. If Carol Marcus cooks life out of existing life, it's not the same as cooking life out of lifelessness.

It's a different question what the required circumstances really were. Apparently, the perfect world for Genesis has oxygen but no life, which is probably a pretty rare thing - and might explain why Terrell and his crew had to spend so much time searching, and were getting so tired and careless toward the end. But why the need for such? In the simulation, it seemed an airless body was to be converted.

(Or was the presence of breathable air on Ceti Alpha V something our Reliant heroes initially missed or misidentified, just like they missed Khan's crew and the eels? Doesn't sound likely. And the two officers readily removed their helmets without expressing surprise at the prevailing conditions...)

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Old July 11 2013, 09:28 PM   #78
EliyahuQeoni
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Re: Genesis Question

Timo wrote: View Post
The Marcuses work to change the world, by changing worlds. It's not exactly a "preservation" philosophy. Plus, they are in the business of creating potential for life, so what's the point of worrying about loss of such potential in Genesis detonations? There's no loss!
Yes, there is. As Spock said later, if there is life on a planet that Genesis is used on that life would be destroyed in favor of the new matrix. The purpose of Genesis was to transform lifeless planets. There is no contradiction between Marcus wanting to create new biospheres out of lifeless planets and a desire to not interfere with life (or potential life) that already exists.
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Old July 11 2013, 09:36 PM   #79
Sran
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Re: Genesis Question

EliyahuQeoni wrote: View Post
Yes, there is. As Spock said later, if there is life on a planet that Genesis is used on that life would be destroyed in favor of the new matrix. The purpose of Genesis was to transform lifeless planets. There is no contradiction between Marcus wanting to create new biospheres out of lifeless planets and a desire to not interfere with life (or potential life) that already exists.
Correct. The potential for either outcome exists, but which outcome ultimately manifests itself is dependent upon the decisions and actions of whomever controls the device.

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Old July 11 2013, 09:43 PM   #80
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Re: Genesis Question

EliyahuQeoni wrote: View Post
Yes, there is. As Spock said later, if there is life on a planet that Genesis is used on that life would be destroyed in favor of the new matrix. The purpose of Genesis was to transform lifeless planets. There is no contradiction between Marcus wanting to create new biospheres out of lifeless planets and a desire to not interfere with life (or potential life) that already exists.
In other words, she has a conscience. Not a hard concept for people to grasp, I hope.

Whatever potential a planet may have to harbor life over time just teeters into butterfly-effect debates. Everything you do could have ramifications pro and con in geologic timescales. That's not something most people worry about, otherwise why get up each morning?

They drew the line at existing microbes, which, IMHO, does fall under treehugger territory in my book.
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Old July 11 2013, 09:47 PM   #81
Timo
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Re: Genesis Question

Especially in Star Trek, where life is dirt cheap: if every planet is not capable of harboring life, then at least every second is!

It takes quite a special mind to fight for the protection of something that faces no threat of extinction. Marcus wouldn't be an environmentalist if protecting the microbes of a random desert world - she would be a religious nutcase.

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Old July 11 2013, 10:10 PM   #82
Sran
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Re: Genesis Question

Timo wrote: View Post
It takes quite a special mind to fight for the protection of something that faces no threat of extinction. Marcus wouldn't be an environmentalist if protecting the microbes of a random desert world - she would be a religious nutcase.
All kidding aside, do we know that the criteria for where and when Genesis could be used came from Marcus? As the project leader, she clearly had say in how the device was used, but isn't it possible the "no life at all" dictum was handed down to her by the Federation Council?

It's easy to read too much into her statements to Terrell about not being able to use a site where even the most rudimentary microbes lives, but it does seem that her reiterations of the project guidelines were a reflection not of her own ideas about how her project would be used but of how the Federation believed it should be used. That Genesis later became a hotbed for controversy because of the circumstances under which it was created only made the situation worse.

The Federation Council stood to be embarrassed by a project they sanctioned because they lost control of it, a loss of control resulting in multiple deaths, the loss of two ships, and endless posturing by the Klingons. It's not clear if that embarrassment trickled down to Marcus. She's never seen again after TWOK, but given the scrutiny surrounding the Enterprise crew merely because they were there, it's hard to believe she came away unscathed.

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Old July 14 2013, 09:37 PM   #83
Timo
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Re: Genesis Question

Good points all. But ST2 seems to play up the passion and devotion of the Marcuses, and ST3 sort of continues this by making it so personal for David that he feels he's forced to cheat, in secrecy, and on an issue he knows will ruin his career. There's thus reason to believe that the project was under close scrutiny and external pressure, but not enough of it to prevent David from doing things that wouldn't show up on the official progress reports.

Carol's thing with microbes IMHO falls closer to the "passion" than "pressure" end of the scale, as she's the "clean" one, not tempted to cheat despite being the formal project leader.

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Old July 14 2013, 09:58 PM   #84
Sran
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Re: Genesis Question

Timo wrote: View Post
Carol's thing with microbes IMHO falls closer to the "passion" than "pressure" end of the scale, as she's the "clean" one, not tempted to cheat despite being the formal project leader.
And it's strongly implied that David knew more about the actual nuts and bolts of the project than his mother did. Genesis was David's chance to make a name for himself, but his mother was already an accomplished scientist who probably oversaw the project because her name and reputation (before TWOK) gave the project credibility it otherwise wouldn't have had.

Indeed, the Myriad Universe novel "The Chimes at Midnight" actually states that David conceived the Genesis Wave himself by running a series of computer simulations while helping his mother work at an Andorian research lab: this material isn't cannon, however. The story's main protagonist isn't David or Kirk, but Thelin, the Andorian Starfleet Officer who became Kirk's closest friend and executive officer in the reality where Spock was killed at the age of seven. The story depicts a fourteen-year-old Marcus running a complicated computer simulation when a picture of the Genesis Wave suddenly appears on his computer monitor, drawing the attention of the scientists working in the lab.

The story comes full circle later when Thelin works with David to protect the Enterprise from the Genesis blast radius: in the story, Thelin doesn't sacrifice himself as Spock did but devises a method of preventing the ship from being absorbed when Reliant explodes, relying on knowledge he gained watching David run the computer simulation several years earlier, as he was in the same laboratory at the time. But I digress...

Whether Carol knew about David's actions in using the proto-matter isn't clear (I'm inclined to think she didn't know), but as the official face of the endeavor, it would not have served her best interests to cut corners with any aspect of the project. Such feelings could easily manifest in her comments to Terrell.

It's too bad there was never a conversation between Saavik and Carol on screen after TSFS. Kirk may have known what David did ("I went wrong," "Genesis doesn't work"), but there's no way to know if he told Carol.

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