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Old July 13 2013, 10:01 PM   #136
marksound
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

But this is not the Man of Steel thread ...
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Old July 13 2013, 10:37 PM   #137
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

davejames wrote: View Post
Jonathan was simply trying to protect his son from being discovered and hounded the rest of his live by the government and military. He still made it clear that he expected Clark to do great things in the future, but just didn't think he was quite ready yet to reveal himself to the world.
Generally, when parents tell their children one thing through their words but demonstrate a completely contradictory thing through their actions, it's going to be their actions that the children grow up emulating.
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Old July 13 2013, 10:50 PM   #138
davejames
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Maybe, but it's still a very human reaction for a parent to have.
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Old July 13 2013, 10:54 PM   #139
marksound
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Christopher wrote: View Post
davejames wrote: View Post
Jonathan was simply trying to protect his son from being discovered and hounded the rest of his live by the government and military. He still made it clear that he expected Clark to do great things in the future, but just didn't think he was quite ready yet to reveal himself to the world.
Generally, when parents tell their children one thing through their words but demonstrate a completely contradictory thing through their actions, it's going to be their actions that the children grow up emulating.
Jonathan demonstrated self sacrifice to Clark in a way that would stay with him for the rest of his life. I don't like the way they did it, but I get the message.

But back to Superman Returns ...
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Old July 14 2013, 12:16 AM   #140
The Dead Mixer
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Marsden's character was wasted. He didn't need to be there, except to provide the seaplane. Lois could have maintained that her son was by "an old boyfriend" and it wouldn't have been any more obvious who was the father.
The thing that people don't seem to appreciate about this situation is that they were setting up Superman to be the Jor-El figure in Jason's life, and Richard to be the Jonathan Kent figure.
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Old July 14 2013, 12:46 AM   #141
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

What screws me up about SR the most is that WB didn't try to salvage SR with a sequel. It made more money than they spent on it. Not a huge haul but a profit. But as far back as 2008 WB had buried SR and decided to reboot. I surmise it was a combination of things. Like The Dark Knight exploding at the BO and grossing over a billion. As well as SR not positioning the character for any potential sequels.
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Old July 14 2013, 01:35 AM   #142
davejames
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Yeah SR made a decent amount of money, but I think it was obvious to the studio that the movie just wasn't exciting audiences and comic book fans the way it needed to.

It was basically greeted with a collective shrug, and I'm sure they worried that the sequel would just be greeted the same way.
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Old July 14 2013, 02:51 AM   #143
marksound
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Carcazoid wrote: View Post
Marsden's character was wasted. He didn't need to be there, except to provide the seaplane. Lois could have maintained that her son was by "an old boyfriend" and it wouldn't have been any more obvious who was the father.
The thing that people don't seem to appreciate about this situation is that they were setting up Superman to be the Jor-El figure in Jason's life, and Richard to be the Jonathan Kent figure.
Good point. I did not catch that.
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Old July 14 2013, 04:08 AM   #144
Dorian Thompson
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

The thing that people don't seem to appreciate about this situation is that they were setting up Superman to be the Jor-El figure in Jason's life, and Richard to be the Jonathan Kent figure.
I didn't catch that either. It's a very astute observation. Makes me sad for Kal-El, though. He never got to embrace his own father; his new father dies in front of him of a heart attack and he's forbidden to have any sort of enduring, loving relationship with a woman. He can't even interact with his birth father anymore because their means of communication is severed by Jor El restoring Kal El's power and "dying" for good. As a bonus his son will be raised by someone else even though Kal-El isn't dead. When you think about it--that really fucking sucks. No wonder the movie wasn't successful.

What a downer for Kal-El of Krypton. Thanks for sending me to Earth instead of that more advanced civilization with a red sun who doesn't need saving, dad.
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Old July 14 2013, 04:23 AM   #145
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

I think that's part of why I prefer the continuities where both Jonathan and Martha are alive and well and an active part of Superman's adult life (as seen in the comics from 1986-2008, the '88 animated series, Lois and Clark, Superman: TAS, and several of the DVD movies). Superman's story may have begun with a tragedy, but it's a story of hope arising from the ashes of tragedy. Having him endure the loss of his adoptive father as well (or both father and mother, in the pre-1986 comics) feels like overkill.

And what annoys me is how this trend seems to have cropped up in recent years that just because Donner's movie had Jonathan (and not Martha) dying, that means everyone has to copy it. We've had Jonathan die in Smallville, in the comics in 2008, and now in Man of Steel. Jonathan dying and Martha living used to be the exception to the pattern, something that only one version of the story had ever done. But because that version was a blockbuster movie, it seems to have overshadowed all the rest and come to be seen as the default.
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Old July 14 2013, 04:28 AM   #146
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

I agree.
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Old July 14 2013, 04:42 AM   #147
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Yeah but the death of Jor-El is such an abstract thing to him, and something he doesn't even remember. I think we still need to see him feel the loss of his adoptive father Jonathan as well-- someone he actually knew and loved, and who instilled the values that he carries forward as Superman.

I think that death carries a lot more weight, and is a lot more important for the character's growth. It's a defining moment that I thought was kind of missing from L&C and TAS, where he still had this perfect, happy little family to go back to all the time.
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Old July 14 2013, 05:13 AM   #148
The Dead Mixer
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Back when the movie was new, there was some talk around these parts about the roles of Superman and Richard in Jason's life. That's why Richard not only isn't a straw man, but is given a heroic role...he's being proven worthy of raising Superman's son. And I think that Superman accepts the situation because he knows that he could never offer his son the sort of normal upbringing that Lois and Richard can. That's why I'd wanted to see where things went from there in a hypothetical sequel...but that was never to be.

The first source that I know of that had only Pa Kent die was the George Reeves TV series...I think that a lot of things in the Donner film were informed by that source, so it got repeated there.

As portrayed in both origin films, though, there is a certain symmetry to it...Clark loses his Earth father only to discover his Kryptonian father.
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Old July 14 2013, 10:34 AM   #149
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
What screws me up about SR the most is that WB didn't try to salvage SR with a sequel. It made more money than they spent on it. Not a huge haul but a profit. But as far back as 2008 WB had buried SR and decided to reboot. I surmise it was a combination of things. Like The Dark Knight exploding at the BO and grossing over a billion. As well as SR not positioning the character for any potential sequels.
SR according boxofficemojo hada reported budget of US$270m and made US$391m.

If those figures are accurate, whilst it took more money at the box office it's doubful it returned a profit. Don't forgot the cinemas get a share of that.
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Old July 14 2013, 11:04 AM   #150
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Superman Returns?

Pros:

Brandon Routh as Clark / Supes- fucking excellent. Flying in circles around Henry Cavill.

Kevin Spacey as Lex Luthor - yeah, he was pretty damn WRRRROOONNGGGG, uhm, yeah, great.

Frank Langella as Perry White and Sam Huntington as Jimmy Olsen - superb casting

The music, visuals and stuff- never before has Daily Planet building looked so amazing. And I fucking loved the airplane sequence. Minus the fake Lois fainting, that almost ruined it.

Cons:

Kate Bosworth should be put into dictionaries. The word "miscast" needs no further explanation. Worst.Lois.Ever. God fucking awful. Read somewhere that Spacey himself insisted on her casting... Fuck you, Kevin.

Meh:


The Plot. It's just lackluster and all meh. Still, there IS a plot, and that's a good thing. The complete and utter lack of it is what killed MoS for me.


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