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Old July 13 2013, 01:23 PM   #31
Guy Gardener
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Re: Vorik the Ponfarr Vulcan

You shouldn't make fun of people with a stutter, even if they are an asshole.

Let's define a Vulcan child.

The emotional development of an emotionally stagnant/devoid creature?

Logic trumps childhood.

The intellectual development of a creature with the potential for an IQ 4 to 5 times that of a "normal" human being.

So what we're really looking at here is Stewie Griffen.

A child's body with a completely adapted healthy Vulcan adults mental/emotional acuity and composure by the age of... 6 months?



A few years. Maybe three? I have met some really on to it human 3 year olds.

Here's a point that Peter David raised.

"Graduated/paced development."

If the upper limit of their life expectancy is 300 years, and middle age is there for 100 to 200, then adult prime is 50 - 100, and adolescence 25 to 50, which means that childhood should be the first 25 years of their life before they begin to look like a human 10 year old.

Which is logical, but doesn't track with the available evidence on hand.
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Old July 13 2013, 01:59 PM   #32
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Re: Vorik the Ponfarr Vulcan

eh, I posted that on my phone on a train and it took me like 20 minutes to touchface it out, it was horrible. And I couldn't add any ameliorating emoticons which I would normally do since I only rag on spelling if something dirty comes to mind, not if someone is just spelling with wrongness.

People used to live to 50 and they didn't hit puberty at 7. In fact they came of reproduction age often later than we do today because we eat better. Add in alien-ness and I don't think we can speculate that living longer means childhood is longer. Adolescence has been extended for humans because of economy and sociological reasons, not because we now live longer.

Klingons grow up quicker, but live longer.

The Vulcan kids in ST:XI were snotty shits, but they were school kids, doing seemingly advanced studies. No way were they ready for pon farr. We only saw the boys (what was up with THAT?! do they segregate them??) but I can't imagine a girl a couple years older than them bearing and raising children. Much less ALL of them doing so.

I think something gets switched on in their brains to bring on pon farr and it happens into early adulthood, whatever that means for Vulcans. 20's I will assume. Prior to that you just have secondary sex characteristics and vague horniness which reading The Teaching of Surak will put a nice damper on.
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Old July 13 2013, 02:18 PM   #33
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Re: Vorik the Ponfarr Vulcan

You're arguing with Peter David's thoughts on the Dr Selar's child which surprised her because she forgot to take into account that her boy was a hybrid with alien attributes which sped up early development considerably... Seriously? Selar? Did they even try to offer her "that" part when they were casting Voyager? Either as the Doctor, or the Doctor/Captain... Imagine Voyager's Captain's relationship with the EMH if the CO had formerly been a CMO? Failing that, the EMH could have been patterned after Selar, or theCMO might not of died and the Hologram could have been staffed to another position on the ship.

That woman was Gorgeous, and is still nothing to sneeze at on How I met your Mother.

Where was I?

Childhood takes as long as it takes.

Environment is a huge issue.

But when you get down to it, did Saavik frakk a thirteen year old Spock?
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Old July 13 2013, 02:36 PM   #34
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Re: Vorik the Ponfarr Vulcan

I have trouble watching TSFS because it is so icky, so I don't know.

Couldn't she have just given him a hand job to stave him off until he jumped forward to 18 at least? He was growing super fast, I'm sure she could have strung him along until the ickiness factor diminished.
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Old July 13 2013, 03:20 PM   #35
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Re: Vorik the Ponfarr Vulcan

As supplied earlier there were 4 actors other than Nimoy who played Spock, aged at 9, 13, 17, and 25.

However she was quelling the pon farr, it was an affliction that hit the 13 year old or the 17 year old as subject zero.

I think it was the thirteen year old, but I can't be bothered watching the movie either to make certain.
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Old July 13 2013, 07:11 PM   #36
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Re: Vorik the Ponfarr Vulcan

I don't see how it could be the 13 year old. If Vulcans got their first pon farr that early, they'd likely just marry their betrothed at that time since that was already done when they were seven. So you have minors having sex, which I'm sure the Vulcans would frown on at that age, but they could put a happy face on it by having the poor dears marry. Could probably work in some whoops babies while they're at it. Spock and T'Pring with adult spawn could have been interesting.
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Old July 14 2013, 12:20 AM   #37
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Re: Vorik the Ponfarr Vulcan

Do you remember being 13? Maybe my experiences/generation was different, but in my class (there was about a thousand of us.) there were plenty of 13 year olds having sex (with other 13 years old and not that much older) and even a couple pregnancies that were carried to term.

The marriage/mating drive is about babies, not "wow my penis finally works, well I guess it's just one vagina for me until I die."

The parents force a telepathic bond between 7 year olds that kicks in when the parents think the time is appropriate, it's like the Manchurian candidate with sex.

If it wasn't for the the telepathic bond, the Vulcan in the heat, boy or girl, it would just be a question of proximity, and you'd end up with weird mutt pairings of princes and hillbillies, which high society is pursed to frown upon.
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Old July 14 2013, 12:41 AM   #38
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Re: Vorik the Ponfarr Vulcan

I think we should take Spock out of the equation for age of pon farr. There are too many unknowns with him being half human. Add in the artificial growth rate he experienced when being resurrected and you are far from text book Vulcan biology.

I'm wondering now, where does all this mating take place? If you have a Vulcan couple who already have a 8 year old and an 15 year old surely both parents aren't losing control and screaming and mating and smashing stuff in the home? Or maybe they always send the children away when it hits? Yeah I guess Vulcan kids might grow up with this being a norm, couple other kids coming to stay periodically for a week because their parents are "meditating together".
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Old July 14 2013, 01:04 AM   #39
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Re: Vorik the Ponfarr Vulcan

I think I argued quite well that a Vulcan three year old is equipped to leave the house, hold down a 9 to 5 and start payments on hir mortgage for a small pleasure moon that should be in the black by the time they're almost 40 when the mating urge gets really specific for the wife and not the secretary bent over a photocopier.

Kes was frakking Neelix when she was one years old, and Kim was frakking her two year old daughter Lynnis, and if that timeline had persisted within a couple months, someone who had been changing Andrew Kim's diapers weeks earlier would be hopelessly romantically in love with him too. On DS9 Alexander looked almost 20, and "someone" on the main cast should have been showing him a good time which should have pissed off his father that a 30 year old genetically engineered human doctor was taking advantage of his 7 year old son.

The differences between Vulcans and Romulans.

Eugenics.

Ponfar was either added to make sure that a ridiculously logical species remembered to make babies, or Pon Far was subtracted because a highly emotional sexual species didn't need permission or excuses to rape and kill their neighbours.

Furtherly Eugenics.

Vulcans are reeeeeeally smart. A 4 year old with an IQ of 300 and the mental discipline to excel at telepathy and bind their emotions?

That sounds like something you'd fight a civil war over, determining the shape of your children and the future of the species... Romulans just seem not quite as bright, and they need machines to probe minds. What if the Age of Reason wasn't just an ideological shift, but surgical?
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Old July 14 2013, 03:33 AM   #40
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Re: Vorik the Ponfarr Vulcan

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Do you remember being 13? Maybe my experiences/generation was different, but in my class (there was about a thousand of us.) there were plenty of 13 year olds having sex (with other 13 years old and not that much older) and even a couple pregnancies that were carried to term.

The marriage/mating drive is about babies, not "wow my penis finally works, well I guess it's just one vagina for me until I die."

The parents force a telepathic bond between 7 year olds that kicks in when the parents think the time is appropriate, it's like the Manchurian candidate with sex.

If it wasn't for the the telepathic bond, the Vulcan in the heat, boy or girl, it would just be a question of proximity, and you'd end up with weird mutt pairings of princes and hillbillies, which high society is pursed to frown upon.
Of course, but I'm taking into consideration that Vulcan culture is quite different than human culture. I seriously doubt teenagers having sex on Vulcan isn't frowned on.
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Old July 14 2013, 04:12 AM   #41
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Re: Vorik the Ponfarr Vulcan

I thought Vorik was cool.
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Old July 14 2013, 04:13 AM   #42
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Re: Vorik the Ponfarr Vulcan

Acceptable mainstream Vulcan culture has "nothing" to do with Pon Farr.

Remember the Victorian denial?

You've heard todays "religious" argument that 14 year olds can not only be taught abstinence, but taught that it is wrong and sinful to masturbate.

Parents and the government can't stop this behaviour no matter how much they insist that meditation works and that meditation means meditation, not masturbation.
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Old July 14 2013, 06:16 AM   #43
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Re: Vorik the Ponfarr Vulcan

As a response to Guy Gardener's reflection on the actor...Unfortunately the actor had some sort of stroke that has reduced him to a semi-non-responsive state this past May.

http://www.gaslampball.com/2013/5/30...-medical-issue

There is an Alexander Enberg page on tumbr somewhere that says he spoke his first word. I think the main reason we haven't seen anymore of the actor is because...well, he's no longer able to. That's too sad, this man's too cute to be catatonic. I don't have all the details b/c his internet bios are sparse.
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Old July 14 2013, 06:29 AM   #44
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Re: Vorik the Ponfarr Vulcan



I read all the tumblr stuff, very sad.
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Old July 14 2013, 07:02 AM   #45
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Re: Vorik the Ponfarr Vulcan

Hey! I was just talking about Surviving Gilligan's Island: The Incredibly True Story of the Longest Three Hour Tour in History on the Bus with someone the other day... Which Alexander had a small part in.

We can't be kind about the character just because "his" actor is having health issues.

That's really weak and ultimately disrespectful to lie so insincerely.

Besides, we're not attacking the character so much as the writer.

Who the #### wrote Bloodfever?

Lisa Klink

Hey! That lady wrote some really good 1st season Stargate.

Hmmm.

In the original script, it was supposed to be Tuvok pairing off with B'Elanna, but Tim Russ thought that 8pm was too early to talk about Adultery.

Last month Sesame Street introduced a new preteen puppet who's dad is in prison.

World's growing up.
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