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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old July 13 2013, 07:06 PM   #46
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

DalekJim wrote: View Post
We have a character that looks nothing like Khan, sounds nothing like Khan, and has a plot which could have been filled by anybody. I wasn't offended , I just didn't see the point of just throwing Khan away like that.
No,we have an actor who does't look or sound like Ricardo Montalban.

Really, because the movie I saw needed a guy who was a highly intelligent, super strong product of "selective breeding". Khan would seem to fit that bill.
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Old July 13 2013, 07:27 PM   #47
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
the movie I saw needed a guy who was a highly intelligent, super strong product of "selective breeding". Khan would seem to fit that bill.
I don't think there was anything in the movie at all about selective breeding. In fact, there was next to nothing about Khan's past or motivations. We know that the movie was originally written as not Khan, and Lindelof wanted it to be Khan so they tailored the role for him. It could have been anybody really because the role was so generic. He could have been a green-skinned alien and it wouldn't have made much of a difference.
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Old July 13 2013, 07:34 PM   #48
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
It could have been anybody really because the role was so generic.
Yeah, I can see some normal guy slaughtering a platoon of Klingons (bigger and scarier versions I might add) like nothing, shrugging off stun blasts from a phaser and Vulcan nerve pinches, and also holding his own against an extremely pissed off Spock.
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Old July 13 2013, 07:43 PM   #49
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Ok, not "anybody" as in a "normal guy" as you say, but the role wasn't initially written as Khan, and that's enough to know that it wasn't necessary for it to be Khan. Adding in a bunch of stuff like the Worf Effect was just superficial trimmings to fit Khan, not elements that were pivotal to the story. Were it someone else, the story would've accommodated them. This isn't that hard to see.
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Old July 13 2013, 07:49 PM   #50
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Ok, not "anybody" as in a "normal guy" as you say, but the role wasn't initially written as Khan, and that's enough to know that it wasn't necessary for it to be Khan. Adding in a bunch of stuff like the Worf Effect was just superficial trimmings to fit Khan, not elements that were pivotal to the story. Were it someone else, the story would've accommodated them. This isn't that hard to see.
So basically instead of Khan, you want yet another Khan ripoff?
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Old July 13 2013, 07:49 PM   #51
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
the movie I saw needed a guy who was a highly intelligent, super strong product of "selective breeding". Khan would seem to fit that bill.
I don't think there was anything in the movie at all about selective breeding. In fact, there was next to nothing about Khan's past or motivations. We know that the movie was originally written as not Khan, and Lindelof wanted it to be Khan so they tailored the role for him. It could have been anybody really because the role was so generic. He could have been a green-skinned alien and it wouldn't have made much of a difference.
That was a callback to Space Seed, it didn't appear in the film. I'm using "selective breeding" as a catchall phrase that covers all sorts of advancement in human physiology, that's why it's in quotes.

Who was the character before he was Khan?
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Old July 13 2013, 07:57 PM   #52
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Ok, not "anybody" as in a "normal guy" as you say, but the role wasn't initially written as Khan, and that's enough to know that it wasn't necessary for it to be Khan. Adding in a bunch of stuff like the Worf Effect was just superficial trimmings to fit Khan, not elements that were pivotal to the story. Were it someone else, the story would've accommodated them. This isn't that hard to see.
So basically instead of Khan, you want yet another Khan ripoff?
Nothing in what Cumberbatch does in STD reminds me of Khan, so I never get that argument. When was Khan ever able to beat a bunch of Klingons to a pulp, shrug off phaser blasts, resist Vulcan nerve pinches and have healing blood? Seriously, nobody would even THINK about shouting "Khan Ripoff!" if the guy was just called "John Harrison, enhanced secret agent".
Make Harrison a human-alien hybrid to explain his abilities and there's NOTHING left of Khan.
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Old July 13 2013, 08:05 PM   #53
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
So basically instead of Khan, you want yet another Khan ripoff?
I never said that. I think if you're going to use Khan, then actually make use of Khan. Don't just slap Khan onto a generic character. Utilize his history or his background to aid in the sci-fi story. They really didn't do that at all. His character was gutted.

And the character he was superimposed onto wasn't even necessarily reminiscent of Khan. They only shaped him that way because they could. The character could've easily stood on his own without being like Khan.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Who was the character before he was Khan?
I don't know if they had a specific character in mind. I think they had a framework for a story, and the question became, "Why can't we bring Khan into this," or something to that effect.
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Old July 13 2013, 08:14 PM   #54
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Ok, not "anybody" as in a "normal guy" as you say, but the role wasn't initially written as Khan, and that's enough to know that it wasn't necessary for it to be Khan. Adding in a bunch of stuff like the Worf Effect was just superficial trimmings to fit Khan, not elements that were pivotal to the story. Were it someone else, the story would've accommodated them. This isn't that hard to see.
So basically instead of Khan, you want yet another Khan ripoff?
Nothing in what Cumberbatch does in STD reminds me of Khan, so I never get that argument. When was Khan ever able to beat a bunch of Klingons to a pulp, shrug off phaser blasts, resist Vulcan nerve pinches and have healing blood? Seriously, nobody would even THINK about shouting "Khan Ripoff!" if the guy was just called "John Harrison, secret agent"
Since he never fought Spock or Klingons and was never hit by a phaser in "Space Seed" or TWOK its hard to say. He did demonstrate super strength in "Space Seed". And McCoy comments on his advanced physiology:

Space Seed wrote:
KIRK: Bones?
MCCOY: He'll live.
KIRK: My compliments.
MCCOY: No, I'm good, but not that good. There's something inside this man that refuses to accept death. Look at that. Even as he is now, his heart valve action has twice the power of yours and mine. Lung efficiency is fifty percent better.
So that his blood might also be advanced is in keeping with what was established.

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
So basically instead of Khan, you want yet another Khan ripoff?
I never said that. I think if you're going to use Khan, then actually make use of Khan. Don't just slap Khan onto a generic character. Utilize his history or his background to aid in the sci-fi story. They really didn't do that at all. His character was gutted.

And the character he was superimposed onto wasn't even necessarily reminiscent of Khan. They only shaped him that way because they could. The character could've easily stood on his own without being like Khan.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Who was the character before he was Khan?
I don't know if they had a specific character in mind. I think they had a framework for a story, and the question became, "Why can't we bring Khan into this," or something to that effect.
Khan wasn't exactly a complex character to begin with. He's pretty one note in "Space Seed" and TWOK. And they aren't even the same notes. Khan in Into Darkness actually seems closer to the guy in "Space Seed" than the nutcase in TWOK.
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Old July 13 2013, 08:23 PM   #55
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
I don't think there was anything in the movie at all about selective breeding.
Nor in Wrath of Khan, when they swapped out Khan's selective breeding backstory for a genetically engineered one (which was very much in ID). WoK also made Khan and his followers white and blond.
In fact, there was next to nothing about Khan's past or motivations.
Khan explained them in the brig ("Is there anything you would not do for your family?"), Marcus explained a version over the viewscreen and then Spock (who was either told by Prime or Googled it afterwards) called him on it when Khan said he planned to continue his work from before he was frozen.
We know that the movie was originally written as not Khan, and Lindelof wanted it to be Khan so they tailored the role for him. It could have been anybody really because the role was so generic. He could have been a green-skinned alien and it wouldn't have made much of a difference.
Couldn't you say that about "Space Seed"? And you do know their Plan B for STII was to bring back Captain Garth?
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Old July 13 2013, 09:13 PM   #56
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Melakon wrote: View Post
CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
We have a character that looks nothing like Khan, sounds nothing like Khan,
So what does Khan look and sound like?


And let's not even get into the fact that Khan was originally written in "Space Seed" to be some Scandinavian dude.
The video shows Ricardo Montalban pretending to be Khan. It does not answer my question.
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Old July 13 2013, 10:19 PM   #57
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Khan wasn't exactly a complex character to begin with. He's pretty one note in "Space Seed" and TWOK.
It's not even necessarily about the complexity of his character, but about how his character relates to the theme. In Space Seed, it was relating to the sci fi theme of eugenics or supermen and related to ideas of ambition. In the Wrath of Khan, the concept was merely an answer to the question posed at the end of Space Seed, and it somewhat continued some of those themes. In Into Darkness, there is practically no commentary about his superiority in relation to what the movie is actually about. It's all just superfluous stuff added on the side. The core story has nothing to do with superior ambition or the woes of genetic engineering. And there's even a blood that seems to cure serious ailments and even death, which has so much opportunity and possibilities for sci fi type stories. But none of that really factors in because again it's just not what the story is about.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Nor in Wrath of Khan
So what?

Khan explained them in the brig ("Is there anything you would not do for your family?")
That's not back story, it's vague rhetoric. It could be said by any villain ever.

Couldn't you say that about "Space Seed"?
No because that premise followed directly from the question at the end of that episode, and expanded from there. It started with a character and situation and built off that. STID was written in the opposite way.
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Old July 13 2013, 10:36 PM   #58
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Khan wasn't exactly a complex character to begin with. He's pretty one note in "Space Seed" and TWOK.
It's not even necessarily about the complexity of his character, but about how his character relates to the theme. In Space Seed, it was relating to the sci fi theme of eugenics or supermen and related to ideas of ambition. In the Wrath of Khan, the concept was merely an answer to the question posed at the end of Space Seed, and it somewhat continued some of those themes. In Into Darkness, there is practically no commentary about his superiority in relation to what the movie is actually about. It's all just superfluous stuff added on the side. The core story has nothing to do with superior ambition or the woes of genetic engineering. And there's even a blood that seems to cure serious ailments and even death, which has so much opportunity and possibilities for sci fi type stories. But none of that really factors in because again it's just not what the story is about.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Nor in Wrath of Khan
So what?
You're unhappy that selective breeding wasn't mentioned in ID, when it was retconned into genetic engineering in WoK.

Khan explained them in the brig ("Is there anything you would not do for your family?")
That's not back story, it's vague rhetoric. It could be said by any villain ever.
Oh?

KIRK: Who the hell are you?

KHAN: A remnent of a time long passed. Genetically engineered to be superior so as to lead others to peace in a world at war. But we were condemned as criminals, forced into exile. For centuries we slept, hoping when we awoke that things would be different.


That's Khan Noonien Singh, not Nero, Shinzon, The Borg Queen, Kruge, The Joker, Zod, Lex Luthor or anyone else.
Couldn't you say that about "Space Seed"?
No because that premise followed directly from the question at the end of that episode, and expanded from there. It started with a character and situation and built off that. STID was written in the opposite way.
WoK wasn't about genetic engineering or any other sci-fi concept, it was about a madman wanting revenge. Genesis could have been any WMD. Khan's superior abilities were never used.
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Old July 13 2013, 10:41 PM   #59
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Khan wasn't exactly a complex character to begin with. He's pretty one note in "Space Seed" and TWOK.
It's not even necessarily about the complexity of his character, but about how his character relates to the theme. In Space Seed, it was relating to the sci fi theme of eugenics or supermen and related to ideas of ambition. In the Wrath of Khan, the concept was merely an answer to the question posed at the end of Space Seed, and it somewhat continued some of those themes. In Into Darkness, there is practically no commentary about his superiority in relation to what the movie is actually about. It's all just superfluous stuff added on the side. The core story has nothing to do with superior ambition or the woes of genetic engineering. And there's even a blood that seems to cure serious ailments and even death, which has so much opportunity and possibilities for sci fi type stories. But none of that really factors in because again it's just not what the story is about.
And in both Khan is nothing more than a Bwahaha villain. There are no real questions asked or answers given. Eugenics, superior ambitions are just background for Khan. They're only important because the allow him to carry out his plan. In "Space Seed" he's all about stealing the Enterprise, so he can ( dramatic pause) RULE THE UNIVERSE! In TWOK he's all about killing Kirk and making him suffer beforehand.( And Khan seems to have lost a few IQ point since "Space Seed".)
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Old July 13 2013, 11:56 PM   #60
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Re: [spoiler], Harrison, or Tonto [spoilers]

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
You're unhappy that selective breeding wasn't mentioned in ID, when it was retconned into genetic engineering in WoK.
Uh, no. I'm not "unhappy" at all. I was just pointing out that it wasn't mentioned, and that's all. Your attempts to go, "BUT BUT TWOK DID IT" are both futile and perplexing here. I'm content with Nerys Myk's explanation for what he meant by it, so there's no need to go on one of those typical comparison crusades.

Oh?

KIRK: Who the hell are you?

KHAN: A remnent of a time long passed. Genetically engineered to be superior so as to lead others to peace in a world at war. But we were condemned as criminals, forced into exile. For centuries we slept, hoping when we awoke that things would be different.


That's Khan Noonien Singh, not Nero, Shinzon, The Borg Queen, Kruge, The Joker, Zod, Lex Luthor or anyone else.
All of that is just meaningless exposition. It serves the story in no way. It relates to the main theme in no way. It doesn't do anything for Kirk. It didn't do anything for me.

WoK wasn't about genetic engineering or any other sci-fi concept, it was about a madman wanting revenge.
Ok, so they could've done a story about a madman wanting revenge, but that's not how they approached it, and that was my whole point. They approached it by first combing through the original series and trying to find a villain to work with, and then expanding from there. They weren't trying to write a story first and then slap a character on top.


Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
And in both Khan is nothing more than a Bwahaha villain. There are no real questions asked or answers given.
I think you're right that answers aren't given and that a lot of it is a vehicle for the action, but I disagree that there weren't questions asked or at least ideas presented in a way that you might think about them. I didn't get any of that from Khan's situation in STID. And don't get me wrong, I thought this movie gave a lot more to think about than most of the other Star Trek movies, it's just that none of it really had to do with Khan, which was surprising to me given some of the fantastic things surrounding him.
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