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Old July 12 2013, 12:58 AM   #286
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

sonak wrote: View Post
Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
Miss Chicken wrote: View Post
I didn't say that. I said it is why I dislike Tom Cruise not that I dislike every single scientologist. Tom Cruise openly speaks more shit than the rest of them.

I can tolerate John Travolta though I don't often watch movies he is in because he is bit of a crap actor. The last movie I watched him in was The Taking of Pelham 123.
His last good movie was Pulp Fiction and he's far from the best performance in it.

ahem


"Face/Off"


that is all
Face/Off?

At least you didn't mention Broken Arrow.

Though, actually, enjoyed his voice work in Bolt.
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Old July 12 2013, 01:14 AM   #287
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Samuel Walters wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
His last good movie was Pulp Fiction and he's far from the best performance in it.

ahem


"Face/Off"


that is all
Face/Off?

At least you didn't mention Broken Arrow.

Though, actually, enjoyed his voice work in Bolt.

Face/Off is one of the greatest action movies of the '90s.
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Old July 12 2013, 01:17 AM   #288
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Lapis Exilis wrote: View Post

Professor Zoom - I'm not sure why you're belaboring my every point. Congratulations to you for boycotting the film because of Card's political views. I'm trying to point out how the story itself reflects Card's philosophy which creates his political views. Why do you care if the discussion takes that turn?
If it does, it does, I suppose. However, others in this thread are trying to make it about the book. "the book isn't homophobic" etc, etc. And time and time again, it seems, it needs to be repeated: it's not about the book. It's not about this specific work of art. It's about this man and his actions, not just his views, his actions.
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Old July 12 2013, 09:19 AM   #289
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

sonak wrote: View Post
Samuel Walters wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


ahem


"Face/Off"


that is all
Face/Off?

At least you didn't mention Broken Arrow.

Though, actually, enjoyed his voice work in Bolt.

Face/Off is one of the greatest action movies of the '90s.
I love Wild Hogs.

I make no apology for it.
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Old July 12 2013, 06:56 PM   #290
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

The question discussed here is 'is it morally OK to boycott an artist's work because you don't like his views'?
The obvious answer is - it's your money and choosing not to pay and see a movie is well within your power and even moral right.

Of course, if you boycott Card for not agreeing with his views, you should boycott a LOT of other artists, as well.
Certainly everyone from more than 200 years ago; back then, they had views that make Card's look like politically correct central.
Otherwise, isn't the attitude somewhat hypocritical?
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Old July 12 2013, 07:00 PM   #291
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Personally, I mostly ignore it, with the HUGE caveat that i'll easily boycott someone's work if it is reflected in their work. If there were anti-gay things worked into the book/movie, or it was trying to convert me to Mormonism or whatnot, I'd have no issues staying away. Otherwise? Eh.
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Old July 12 2013, 07:12 PM   #292
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Of course, if you boycott Card for not agreeing with his views, you should boycott a LOT of other artists, as well.
Certainly everyone from more than 200 years ago; back then, they had views that make Card's look like politically correct central.
Otherwise, isn't the attitude somewhat hypocritical?
You must have missed the whole point that subsidizing Card's work now is going to directly subsidize him. Why should I make his life any easier or better (financially speaking) when I so thoroughly detest his words and actions?

Samuel Walters wrote: View Post
Lapis Exilis wrote: View Post
I'm not one for confusing the art and artist - Picasso was a misogynistic prick, but that doesn't make his paintings bad. Card's not exactly going to use the money he makes from Ender's Game to go on any anti-gay rights campaigns, so I don't see the point of a boycott based on his personal opinions about homosexuality. If you only partook of art created by people whose every single thought and opinion you agreed with, we'd all have a very limited selection of art to chose from.
I've been thinking about this a bit ... and ... well, I don't want to be overly flippant, but I think it's easier to disassociate artist from art when the artist is dead. For starters, appreciating a Picasso painting is different than purchasing a Card book or a ticket to a movie based on one of his books. Also, any money spent to appreciate a Picasso (say, at the Met), isn't going to subsidize his life and any objectionable things he might subsequently do with that subsidy. Perhaps once Card has moved on, and provided his estate isn't bequeathed to groups based on his current views, I think more people will be willing to at least give his work a chance - based on its inherent merits, and not on the detriments of its artist.
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Old July 12 2013, 07:25 PM   #293
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Samuel Walters, how much money is Card making from this movie?
Does he even take a percentage of the movie's earnings, or was he already payed a fixed amount of money?
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Old July 12 2013, 07:31 PM   #294
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

^ Actually, his specific method of payment for this film is irrelevant. Either way, the more successful the movie, there more positive outcomes there are for Card. There's always a chance sequels could be made. Additionally, and more importantly in terms of royalties, a highly successful film will raise awareness of his books (beyond the awareness associated with the film and beyond a mediocre film performance) - which will drive increased book sales for years to come. And so forth. Should the film flop, or even have an unremarkable performance, those positive outcomes will be less likely for Card.

All that being said, as I've mentioned before, the film's success hinges much more on the filmmakers themselves than on any decision by me, or any one else, who chooses not to subsidize it - and, by extension, Card.
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Old July 12 2013, 07:37 PM   #295
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
The question discussed here is 'is it morally OK to boycott an artist's work because you don't like his views'?
The obvious answer is - it's your money and choosing not to pay and see a movie is well within your power and even moral right.

Of course, if you boycott Card for not agreeing with his views, you should boycott a LOT of other artists, as well.
Certainly everyone from more than 200 years ago; back then, they had views that make Card's look like politically correct central.
Otherwise, isn't the attitude somewhat hypocritical?
SIGH. Except your question is wrong.

The question being discussed, is it morally OK to boycott an artist's work because of his ACTIONS? Not his views. His ACTIONS.
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Old July 12 2013, 07:40 PM   #296
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Samuel Walters
The specific method of payment is quite relevant.
If he was already payed, the movie or sequels will not give him material leverage.
And the chain from 'if the movie is succesful' to 'maybe his books will sell better (assuming he even still gets money from those books, this movie-books connection seldom happens, and only with the biggest blockbusters)' is so tenuous as not to be satisfactory as an explanation - especially given that you obviously have no relevant information about Card's finances. It really seems to be more of a justification.

From this thread, it seems the reason many boycott Card is because going to see the movie is, in some sense, honoring him, acknowledging him as an artist, as if he has something worthwhile to say.
Many posters choose to deny Card this acknowledgement by boycotting the movie.

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
The question discussed here is 'is it morally OK to boycott an artist's work because you don't like his views'?
The obvious answer is - it's your money and choosing not to pay and see a movie is well within your power and even moral right.

Of course, if you boycott Card for not agreeing with his views, you should boycott a LOT of other artists, as well.
Certainly everyone from more than 200 years ago; back then, they had views that make Card's look like politically correct central.
Otherwise, isn't the attitude somewhat hypocritical?
SIGH. Except your question is wrong.

The question being discussed, is it morally OK to boycott an artist's work because of his ACTIONS? Not his views. His ACTIONS.
'Actions' can easily be put in the place of 'views' - with no change whatsoever in my point. The actions of a person reflect his/her views; this is true about artists, as well.
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Old July 12 2013, 07:56 PM   #297
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

'Actions' can easily be put in the place of 'views' - with no change whatsoever in my point. The actions of a person reflect his/her views; this is true about artists, as well.
Actions are motivated by views. But that doesn't mean views are the same as actions and you can switch them out interchangeably.

When you are actively participating in trying to stop people from getting equal rights, that's crossing a line for me.

I'll put it this way: would you be friends with a member of the KKK? If you were only friends with people who agreed with you 100% you wouldn't have a lot of friends, would you? OR... would you? I have a lot of friends... I don't agree with them on 100% of things... Like there are artists who I am SURE I don't agree with 100% of the time. But, this isn't about agreement or disagreement....

This is about a man who was ACTIVELY campaigning to stop people from having equal rights because of who they fall in love with. I see no problem, morally, ethically, whatsoever in NOT seeing the movie, or buying another one of his books. And I don't think I'm hypocritical.

And no, I don't think the organization that Card is a board member is all that different than the KKK. Both are organizations trying to prevent equal rights for minorities.
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Old July 12 2013, 07:57 PM   #298
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Samuel Walters
The specific method of payment is quite relevant.
If he was already payed, the movie or sequels will not give him material leverage.
And the chain from 'if the movie is succesful' to 'maybe his books will sell better (assuming he even still gets money from those books, this movie-books connection seldom happens, and only with the biggest blockbusters)' is so tenuous as not to be satisfactory as an explanation - especially given that you obviously have no relevant information about Card's finances. It really seems to be more of a justification.
You, uh, don't understand how people make money do you?
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Old July 12 2013, 08:02 PM   #299
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

sojourner wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Samuel Walters
The specific method of payment is quite relevant.
If he was already payed, the movie or sequels will not give him material leverage.
And the chain from 'if the movie is succesful' to 'maybe his books will sell better (assuming he even still gets money from those books, this movie-books connection seldom happens, and only with the biggest blockbusters)' is so tenuous as not to be satisfactory as an explanation - especially given that you obviously have no relevant information about Card's finances. It really seems to be more of a justification.
You, uh, don't understand how people make money do you?
Do explain then how Card will turn the movie, if successful, in a cornucopia for him.
Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

'Actions' can easily be put in the place of 'views' - with no change whatsoever in my point. The actions of a person reflect his/her views; this is true about artists, as well.
Actions are motivated by views. But that doesn't mean views are the same as actions and you can switch them out interchangeably.

When you are actively participating in trying to stop people from getting equal rights, that's crossing a line for me.

I'll put it this way: would you be friends with a member of the KKK? If you were only friends with people who agreed with you 100% you wouldn't have a lot of friends, would you? OR... would you? I have a lot of friends... I don't agree with them on 100% of things... Like there are artists who I am SURE I don't agree with 100% of the time. But, this isn't about agreement or disagreement....

This is about a man who was ACTIVELY campaigning to stop people from having equal rights because of who they fall in love with. I see no problem, morally, ethically, whatsoever in NOT seeing the movie, or buying another one of his books. And I don't think I'm hypocritical.

And no, I don't think the organization that Card is a board member is all that different than the KKK. Both are organizations trying to prevent equal rights for minorities.
And many of the greats actively campaigned for slavery/unthinking obedience to king&church/racism/etc.
And the ones who didn't most definitely made their views into actions in day to day life.

Yes, Card is not an example of an enlightened human being. Many artists - most past artists - would make Card look enlightened and then some.
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Old July 12 2013, 08:09 PM   #300
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post

Do explain then how Card will turn the movie, if successful, in a cornucopia for him.
by what samuel walters said happening that you already dismissed
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