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Old July 12 2013, 12:00 AM   #91
The Old Mixer
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

I hated the whole idea of the growing Kryptonian crystals....I think that Singer was running with a misinterpretation of how the Fortress was built in the Donner film and taking the flawed concept too far. In the Donner film, one specific crystal (distinguished by its color, which made it too easy to confuse with Kryptonite, but that's beside the point) built the Fortress out of surrounding ice....something that it was probably programmed specifically to do. There's no evidence that throwing a full-sized crystal in water is supposed to create a continent-sized land mass...and all of the other crystals in the Fortress would have themselves been created, not originals from Krypton, so you'd think they'd be inferior in that regard, not superior.

gblews wrote: View Post
I think "the Old Mixer" wrote in the MOS thread sums up my feelings about SR and MOS, between the two, there is a great Superman movie.
Heh. I'd been thinking of throwing that line in here but hadn't gotten around to it. To phrase it my own way, somewhere between the best parts of SR and MoS is a great Superman film that we haven't seen yet.
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Old July 12 2013, 03:21 AM   #92
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
I hated the whole idea of the growing Kryptonian crystals....I think that Singer was running with a misinterpretation of how the Fortress was built in the Donner film and taking the flawed concept too far. In the Donner film, one specific crystal (distinguished by its color, which made it too easy to confuse with Kryptonite, but that's beside the point) built the Fortress out of surrounding ice....something that it was probably programmed specifically to do. There's no evidence that throwing a full-sized crystal in water is supposed to create a continent-sized land mass...and all of the other crystals in the Fortress would have themselves been created, not originals from Krypton, so you'd think they'd be inferior in that regard, not superior.
Granted... but on the other hand, it pretty much stands to reason that if a technology is all made from crystals, then by definition it was grown, and it's not a huge stretch that it could have the potential for further growth under the right circumstances. I wouldn't call it a misinterpretation so much as an updated interpretation, choosing to read the crystals as a kind of self-replicating nanotechnology. It's a logical extrapolation from there that they could have the ability to modify matter on a large scale.
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Old July 12 2013, 03:38 AM   #93
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Maybe if Luthor had done something to bring that out in the crystals...but it was presented as a natural property. "This is a memory crystal...it plays a movie of some guy in a robe reading Earth poetry...and if you throw it in water, it just so happens to grow a continent!"
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Old July 12 2013, 04:18 AM   #94
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Or had Luthor actually gained Kryptonian technology from the crystals. That could be in turned used as weapons against Superman. The film may have been better. His diabolical scheme of growing continents doesn't really create the IMMINENT threat an action movie calls for.
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Old July 12 2013, 01:09 PM   #95
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?



I wanted to leave the theater after this scene. Listening for crime over a city, I get, but he had no right to peek on Lois' life.

Last edited by bbjeg; July 12 2013 at 01:25 PM.
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Old July 12 2013, 02:15 PM   #96
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

I don't have time to read the other posts (just now)...

but for me, it was a big disappointment of highexpectations.

it just felt bland and without the spirit that Bryan Singer had with the X-Men movies.

I was VERY excited to know he was working on it...I really felt that his X-Men movies really brought the spirit of the comics, while modernizing and "movie-izing" X-Men so it can appeal to both fan and newbie. There were nuggets than fans could appreciate, but didn't alienate ,let's say, kids who never read X-Men before.

Superman Returns just didn't feel like any of that.

I also feel sad that Singer dropped X-Men 3 to work on this -- it made sense to me (I might have done the same thing given the opportunities), but the result were TWO superhero movies that weren't very good, rather than at least 1 that would be been a great segment in the x-men trilogy
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Old July 12 2013, 02:54 PM   #97
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

The thing that I find intriguing about both films is that they represented extremes that if handled correctly would've made for a kick ass masterpiece. SR was at times too ponderous and thoughtful. But if you would've jettisoned the stuff that didn't work and added MOS elements that worked that filmed might've been received better.

The same idea applies to MOS, it had some quiet reflective moments, esp. in the first half. But like many here I agree the action was too much, it was an overreaction to SR's lack of action. Anyway, if they would've cut back on all the punching and had more quieter moments like SR, more people would've been satisfied.

Oh, BTW, utilizing John Williams' theme at some point wouldn't have alienated so many fans of the original films. At least SR got the score right.
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Old July 12 2013, 03:36 PM   #98
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

^ leaving out the John Williams score was a good idea IMO. Snyder is creating his on franchise, independent of previous films. Chris Nolan didn't use the Danny Elfman score from Batman 1989; in his films.
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Old July 12 2013, 03:57 PM   #99
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

I don't agree that recycling the John Williams score would've been "right." People keep forgetting that Williams's theme was itself a pastiche of the two seminal Superman marches, Sammy Timberg's from the Fleischer cartoons and Leon Klatzkin's from the Reeves TV series. Williams is just one of many composers who've created new Superman fanfares and marches that followed the stylistic lead of those two, and some of them have done lovely work. Personally I'm quite fond of Ron Jones's theme from the 1988 animated series and Jay Gruska's from Lois and Clark. Shirley Walker's S:TAS theme is pretty good too, and Louis Febre gave Clark a pretty good heroic motif in later seasons of Smallville. Hans Zimmer came up with a good Superman theme at the beginning of the end title music of MOS, but he barely used it.

I suppose the reuse of the Williams theme in SR could be justified because it was theoretically a continuation of the same version of Superman, but I didn't care for the way it was used. John Ottman didn't do any fresh adaptation or variations on it, didn't arrange it to fit the sequences it accompanied; he just slavishly replayed the theme music note-for-note every time Superman did something, and it felt lazy, repetitive, and heavy-handed.
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Old July 12 2013, 05:47 PM   #100
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

bbjeg wrote: View Post
I wanted to leave the theater after this scene. Listening for crime over a city, I get, but he had no right to peek on Lois' life.
Obviously it crosses a bit of a line, but I didn't think it came across all that creepy the way they did it. Superman had just returned to Earth and learned that not only is Lois seeing Perry's son, but she's got a freakin kid. It seemed clear to me that he was as thrown by that as we were, and simply wanted to confirm that it was true, and that he hadn't just imagined the whole thing.

I mean, it's not like he was peeking in on her in the shower or anything, or hovering outside the house all night long. And plus the look into her new life was as much for our benefit as it was for Superman's anyway.
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Old July 12 2013, 06:21 PM   #101
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Indeed he didn't stayed there all night.
And for everyone who did likes the movie I recommend the book of the movie.

Last edited by USS Firefly; July 12 2013 at 08:16 PM.
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Old July 13 2013, 12:43 AM   #102
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

davejames wrote: View Post
bbjeg wrote: View Post
I wanted to leave the theater after this scene. Listening for crime over a city, I get, but he had no right to peek on Lois' life.
Obviously it crosses a bit of a line, but I didn't think it came across all that creepy the way they did it. Superman had just returned to Earth and learned that not only is Lois seeing Perry's son, but she's got a freakin kid. It seemed clear to me that he was as thrown by that as we were, and simply wanted to confirm that it was true, and that he hadn't just imagined the whole thing.

I mean, it's not like he was peeking in on her in the shower or anything, or hovering outside the house all night long. And plus the look into her new life was as much for our benefit as it was for Superman's anyway.
How would Superman know she wasn't in the shower? I think they could have added that scene to when he's listening over the city, and he so happens to catch Lois. Then we (the audience) see Lois, then cut back to Superman hearing alarms, and so on.

Switch the roles with a normal person; unprotected sex, leaves for a few years without a goodbye, comes back and his girl has a kid with the bosses son so he peaks through her window at night to see if it's true. If you were a neighbor and saw that, would you say 'how sweet', or call the cops?

I liked Reeves Superman, I was pumped that they were continuing(ish) the story, I even did a Superman marathon the night before Returns came out, and I was stoked that Spacey was playing Luthor. My expectations were high which probably made faults stand out more. Looking back, it wasn't that bad a movie, but it wasn't a good Superman movie.
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Old July 13 2013, 01:30 AM   #103
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

davejames wrote: View Post
bbjeg wrote: View Post
I wanted to leave the theater after this scene. Listening for crime over a city, I get, but he had no right to peek on Lois' life.
Obviously it crosses a bit of a line, but I didn't think it came across all that creepy the way they did it. Superman had just returned to Earth and learned that not only is Lois seeing Perry's son, but she's got a freakin kid. It seemed clear to me that he was as thrown by that as we were, and simply wanted to confirm that it was true, and that he hadn't just imagined the whole thing.

I mean, it's not like he was peeking in on her in the shower or anything, or hovering outside the house all night long. And plus the look into her new life was as much for our benefit as it was for Superman's anyway.
It doesn't matter what the person inside is doing or their state of clothedness if you look in someone's home without their permission/knowing about you're being a stalker and a creeper.

We didn't need Superman there to see Lois' homelife the action simply could have moved there on its own without Superman being a complete freak and creep by spying on people inside the privacy of their home.
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Old July 13 2013, 04:33 AM   #104
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Well I guess for me the fact that it's Superman doing it precludes the scene from having any kind of creepy undertone to it. He's coming from a much more pure and innocent place than that, and doesn't feel to me at all like just another typical, spurned ex-boyfriend there.

I'm not saying it was the right thing for him to do, I just don't get the same "creepy vibe" that others do. And clearly Singer didn't either.
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Old July 13 2013, 05:10 AM   #105
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Re: Why The Hate For Superman Returns?

Wasn't he crying after he left Lois' home also?

Routh looked the part. However Singer gave the man very little dialogue as either Clark or Supes and admitted he told Routh to play it like Chris Reeve. Wrong, wrong wrong. At least Cavil can be considers a star in MoS. Where Routh felt like a supporting character in his own movie.
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