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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old July 12 2013, 03:51 PM   #226
DonIago
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

Anwar wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
Citations Needed.
No one seems to tear into "Shades of Grey" or "Spock's Brain" as badly as VOY is trashed.
I don't think it's valid to compare an opinion of a show overall to an opinion of an individual episode. Last time I checked, nobody ever credibly claimed that every episode of Voyager sucked, and it's my experience that opinions of "The Void" and "Living Witness" were good at the time and continue to be good despite a couple of nitpitcks of arguable severity; I feel you haven't provided evidence to refute that.

Last time I checked the consensus was that "Spock's Brain" was so bad it's funny whereas "Shades of Gray" is simply bad-awful. I've seen both get trashed quite regularly here, but I'd also point out that there's little sport, for those looking for it, in trashing an episode considered universally bad. Why trash something nobody will debate you about when you can trash something that will generate some discussion instead?
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Old July 12 2013, 04:22 PM   #227
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

DonIago wrote: View Post
Why trash something nobody will debate you about when you can trash something that will generate some discussion instead?
I suspect some of it is just posters playing devil's advocate against a popular viewpoint. Once in a while there might be a valid point presented, but usually the posts seem designed just to push people's buttons. Especially when there are topic titles like "Don't you think [Actor/Producer/Character/Episode/Series/Film/Obscure Line of Dialogue] was the worst thing about Star Trek?"
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Old July 12 2013, 06:25 PM   #228
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
What person A defines as something being trashed, person B defines as critisim. It is possible to enjoy something yet feel that it was lacking in parts.
But that's not how it is with VOY. When anyone "criticizes" it all they do is point out the bad and never mention the good. That's not critique, it's just trashing something.

And no, "It should've been serialized" or "These characters should've been more!" are not critiques, they're just more mudslinging.

Like I said with "Living Witness" the number one thing always pointed to is "There shouldn't be a backup!" because they let that drown out anything else about the episode.

A fair few people don't think VOY ever really sold us it's premise hence why the show is referred to as TNG-lite.
The premise itself was incomplete, had some good points, but overall needed a bit more time put into it to iron out the kinks. That was also part of the problem, they took something that wasn't totally ready and put it on the air.

And yes "Shades of Gray" and "Spock's Brain" are bad episodes and they are both definantly towards the franchises bottom end in terms of quality.
And yet neither gets mentioned as much as VOY's "criticisms" are.
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Old July 12 2013, 07:10 PM   #229
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

I'm sorry but you are wrong, I said Living Witness is a good episode and Robert Picardo was one of the best things about the show. I also critise the show for it's lack of continuity.

You said when anyone criticises (i.e every person who criticises) all they do is focus on the negative. So I've stated a positve. What I think you mean is that there is a portion of people who focus on the negative.
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Old July 12 2013, 08:00 PM   #230
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

Anwar wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
What person A defines as something being trashed, person B defines as critisim. It is possible to enjoy something yet feel that it was lacking in parts.
But that's not how it is with VOY. When anyone "criticizes" it all they do is point out the bad and never mention the good. That's not critique, it's just trashing something.

And no, "It should've been serialized" or "These characters should've been more!" are not critiques, they're just more mudslinging.
Well, you can point a finger at me for saying Chakotay could've and should've been a hell of a lot more than Janeway's lapdog. And akoochimoya, my indigenous ass, and all that.

Doesn't mean I don't see Voyager's good points.

All it means is that I really loathe what they did to one character.
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Old July 12 2013, 09:14 PM   #231
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

Why do you hate Voyager???!!!???
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Old July 12 2013, 09:54 PM   #232
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

Because I'm evil that way....

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Old July 13 2013, 12:11 AM   #233
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

Someone (not Anwar) even accused me of hating Voyager once and being a basher because I posted something sarcastic.
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Old July 13 2013, 12:15 AM   #234
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

Surely not!
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Old July 13 2013, 12:42 AM   #235
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

teacake wrote: View Post
Someone (not Anwar) even accused me of hating Voyager once and being a basher because I posted something sarcastic.
Don't you mean not "exclusively" Anwar?

I consider myself middle of the road, but you zelots, you know who you are, most of the time sicken me with your extremes.
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Old July 13 2013, 12:45 AM   #236
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

If I've sickened anyone via zealotry I feel I'm on the right track.
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Old July 13 2013, 12:55 AM   #237
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

teacake wrote: View Post
Someone (not Anwar) even accused me of hating Voyager once and being a basher because I posted something sarcastic.
I remember noticing something like that a few months back, and posted this after your post:

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Old July 13 2013, 01:04 AM   #238
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

Crazyewok wrote: View Post
I was thinking yesterday that voyager would have been a lot better if they had killed some of the main cast off every now and then.

I think it could have added more suspense as you would never have known what would happen each episode rather than know that the main cast would always pull through ok.
The problem is people get attached to characters with a show and you kill enough off, the audience will face attrition and the show becomes a sort of anthology with continuity. There's the issue of emotional commitment to a show. And also such a tactic leads to death for deaths sake (as was cited with Stargate Atlantis. That was the case with Beckett and that did NOT go over well. Same could be said for Trip's gratuitous death in the Enterprise 'finale' and Joe Carey being offed and Admiral Janeway not giving a damn to go back 1 month earlier so his children could have their father back when they return home in 1 months time). The concept leads to some ghoulishness and sadism on the part of some writers.

The idea of a cast where no one is safe is one many get enamored with, but in practice it becomes problematic. Would be funny to apply it to a family sitcom though, especially if they start with a Brady Bunch-sized cast.
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Old July 13 2013, 01:16 AM   #239
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

I can almost envision a television reboot of The Addams Family, with their supporting character neighbors mysteriously disappearing during ratings sweeps weeks.
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Old July 13 2013, 01:34 AM   #240
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

You don't think as episode where Wednesday, snares, skins and stirfries the neighbours would be ratings gold?
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