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Old July 11 2013, 05:31 AM   #46
M.A.C.O.
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Sran wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote:
Question is, What do you think the Dominion could do differently to win next time? The Dominion had no trouble kicking in the teeth of the Fed., Klingons and Rommies.
You've got to be kidding me. The Dominion lost the war with the Federation, yet they had no trouble beating them? Are you trying to be funny?

--Sran
I didn't say the Dominion won the war. I said they had no trouble kicking the Federation/Klingon/Romulans teeth in. You can be on the losing side of a fight and or war and still manage to pull out a victory. Everyone knows the Dominion was on the winning side for much of the war. Statistical Probabilities even pointed to an eventual Dominion victory.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
A dominion expeditionary force lost a war against the federation/klingons/romulans.
The full might of the dominion (aka all forces the dominion can afford to send to the alpha/beta quadrants) would have no trouble crushing not only the federation, but the federation/klingons/romulans put together.
Also the Federation did have the Prophets intervene on the behalf of Captain Sisko. Preventing the Dominion fleet of 2,800 ships from entering the Alpha Quadrant, and preventing any other Dominion ships from traveling through the wormhole.

Bring in the full force of the Dominion from the Gamma Quad and take away the Prophets of Bajor regulating the wormhole, and may you have a different outcome of the conflict.
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Old July 11 2013, 11:24 AM   #47
Timo
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Imagine a ship comprised of nothing but an engine, shield, computer, weapon (phaser or photon torpedo or some combination thereof) and other ancillary systems (commo, sensors, etc).
I do. And what I see is one of the automated sections of the Prometheus.

Anything smaller would not have an engine, because combat-credible engines are big things. It might not even have a weapon, because we haven't seen evidence that ship-killing weapons could be made particularly compact.

Take a look at today's drones.
Yup - aircraft that are just as large and heavy as their crewed counterparts, and thrice as expensive. Because they have to be. Anything smaller would be unable to carry the weapons and sensors or mount the engine.

they'd be in the wrong
Which is completely separate from the issue of whether or not they would have a cause to launch another war. Right and wrong don't enter the picture at all - especially not right and wrong as defined by the enemy.

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Old July 11 2013, 02:16 PM   #48
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Timo wrote: View Post
Imagine a ship comprised of nothing but an engine, shield, computer, weapon (phaser or photon torpedo or some combination thereof) and other ancillary systems (commo, sensors, etc).
I do. And what I see is one of the automated sections of the Prometheus.
Not exactly, a truly automated ship would not need areas like crew quarters, mess halls, bathrooms, sick bays, corridors, turbo lifts, storage for crew supplies, holodecks, etc. While the Prometheus was the basis of a story/episode, some of the ship's functions seem fantastic and unnecessary. Why design and build a ship that splits in three tactical components when it would probably be far cheaper to build three ships? I mean, wouldn't it be cool if modern aircraft carriers could fly and submerge underwater? Yeah, of course. But WTF would be the point?

Timo wrote: View Post
Anything smaller would not have an engine, because combat-credible engines are big things.
I'm not familiar with the term "combat credible engine". What is that? Is that an engine that is fast enough to outrun a phaser beam or photon torpedo? I can't recall that term ever being used in Star Trek so perhaps you can reference me to this term. Would this mean that automated defensive satellites have no place in battle since they probably have no significant means of propulsion? I do believe the vast majority of battles are fought at subwarp so is it the impulse or warp engine that need to be "combat credible"?

Timo wrote: View Post
It might not even have a weapon, because we haven't seen evidence that ship-killing weapons could be made particularly compact.
Try to imagine a runabout without the need for all the area given to the crew (saving about 70-80% of space). It seems to have a capable array of weaponry. A large starship attacked by dozens of small, runabout type ships armed with phasers and microtorpedos. This is essentially what happened in World War II when groups of fighters launched from aircraft carriers proved to be more lethal in combat than the gigantic, heavily armed battleships.

Timo wrote: View Post
Take a look at today's drones.
Yup - aircraft that are just as large and heavy as their crewed counterparts, and thrice as expensive.
Ummm, I'm not sure if you are talking about current drones or your imagined drones of the future because the specifications of current aircraft in production for the US are:

MQ-9 Reaper (Drone): Cost=16.9 million, Size=36'x11', Weight=4,900lbs
MQ-1C Gray Eagle (Drone): Cost=21.5 million, Size=28'x7', Weight=3,600lbs
F-22 Raptor (Manned): Cost=150 million, Size=62'x17', Weight=43,300lbs
F-35 Lightning (Manned): Cost=150-200 million, Size=51'x14', Weight=49,500lbs

So that is completely inaccurate. I'm going to assume you either had bad information or misstated what you actually meant to say.

Timo wrote: View Post
Because they have to be. Anything smaller would be unable to carry the weapons and sensors or mount the engine.
Refer to the data above. Current drones don't have to be the same size or larger than manned aircraft. In fact the available data suggests the exact opposite is true.

Timo wrote: View Post
they'd be in the wrong
Which is completely separate from the issue of whether or not they would have a cause to launch another war. Right and wrong don't enter the picture at all - especially not right and wrong as defined by the enemy.

Timo Saloniemi
I'm not sure who this is directed at, that doesn't seem to be a quote from me.
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Old July 11 2013, 02:28 PM   #49
Sran
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
I didn't say the Dominion won the war.
Yes, I know that. That doesn't change the fact that you're making a ridiculous argument.

AllStarEntprise wrote:
I said they had no trouble kicking the Federation/Klingon/Romulans teeth in. You can be on the losing side of a fight and or war and still manage to pull out a victory.
Wrong. I'll grant that the Dominion tested the Federation as never before, but that's as far as it goes. The Dominion lost the war. As a result, they were asked to give up any territory taken during the conflict with the Federation. That's not a victory in any way, shape, or form. The combatants of a war don't receive ribbons at its conclusion merely because they participated in it.

AllStarEntprise wrote:
Everyone knows the Dominion was on the winning side for much of the war. Statistical Probabilities even pointed to an eventual Dominion victory.
Which means nothing. Statistics don't actually fight wars. That the Dominion's victory was a theoretical possibility didn't matter where actual military engagements were concerned. Recall that Sisko angrily rejected Bashir's proposal of surrender precisely because he didn't believe it was appropriate to place one's faith in numbers.

AllStarEntprise wrote:
Also the Federation did have the Prophets intervene on the behalf of Captain Sisko. Preventing the Dominion fleet of 2,800 ships from entering the Alpha Quadrant, and preventing any other Dominion ships from traveling through the wormhole.
Wrong again. Sisko requested the Prophets' help as the Emissary, not as a Starfleet officer. The Federation had nothing to do with what happened in the Celestial Temple.

AllStarEntprise wrote:
Bring in the full force of the Dominion from the Gamma Quad and take away the Prophets of Bajor regulating the wormhole, and may you have a different outcome of the conflict.
And what makes you think the Prophets will sit back and do nothing as this is happening?

--Sran
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Old July 11 2013, 04:51 PM   #50
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

So now Sran resorts to the prophets as a way to win the war. To prayers that the gods will be kind to the federation.
That alone shows the weakness of his argument.
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Old July 11 2013, 05:38 PM   #51
Sran
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
So now Sran resorts to the prophets as a way to win the war. To prayers that the gods will be kind to the federation.
That alone shows the weakness of his argument.
I'm not arguing that at all. I'm merely asking a question that's relevant to the scenario we're discussing. AllStarEntprise believes that only the intervention of the Prophets prevented the Dominion from defeating the Federation and that such an occurrence would not repeat itself were the Dominion to attempt another incursion into the Alpha Quadrant. I'm asking him how he can be sure of such an eventuality.

But how did I know you'd completely miss the point?

--Sran
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Old July 11 2013, 06:48 PM   #52
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Sran, the point is, when your only hope of victory over a foe is what amounts to divine intervention, then this foe is clearly stronger than you.
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Old July 11 2013, 07:00 PM   #53
Sran
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Sran, the point is, when your only hope of victory over a foe is what amounts to divine intervention, then this foe is clearly stronger than you.
Except that I've never argued that the Dominion isn't stronger than the Federation. That's the point you've repeatedly missed. My reason for posting in this thread was to point out how poorly AllStarEntprise presents his points, not because I believe the Federation would easily defeat the Dominion in a subsequent war.

That you would argue with me despite not understanding my position proves only how limited your own POV is.

--Sran
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Old July 11 2013, 07:36 PM   #54
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Sran wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Sran, the point is, when your only hope of victory over a foe is what amounts to divine intervention, then this foe is clearly stronger than you.
Except that I've never argued that the Dominion isn't stronger than the Federation. That's the point you've repeatedly missed. My reason for posting in this thread was to point out how poorly AllStarEntprise presents his points, not because I believe the Federation would easily defeat the Dominion in a subsequent war.

That you would argue with me despite not understanding my position proves only how limited your own POV is.

--Sran
So - you claim to post here in order to show not that another poster is wrong/right/tell your thoughts on the subject, but to show that a poster didn't use semantics to your liking?
And you call my POV limited? Really?

Luckily for you, your previous posts contradict your latest claim:
"You've got to be kidding me. The Dominion lost the war with the Federation, yet they had no trouble beating them? Are you trying to be funny"
"Wrong. I'll grant that the Dominion tested the Federation as never before, but that's as far as it goes. The Dominion lost the war. As a result, they were asked to give up any territory taken during the conflict with the Federation. That's not a victory in any way, shape, or form. The combatants of a war don't receive ribbons at its conclusion merely because they participated in it."
etc.
All about the relative power of the federation/dominion. Little about AllStarEntpris's post building.
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Old July 11 2013, 07:52 PM   #55
Timo
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Not exactly, a truly automated ship would not need areas like crew quarters, mess halls, bathrooms, sick bays, corridors, turbo lifts, storage for crew supplies, holodecks, etc.
And removing those from the big Prometheus drones only serves to narrow down the forward arrowhead a little. The thing is already as barebones as barebones can be - almost two-dimensional save for the engine nacelles!

Why design and build a ship that splits in three tactical components when it would probably be far cheaper to build three ships?
One possibility: because you need combat drones, which by definition have to have large engines and heavy weapons, and you need a crewed control center, which doesn't need either of those but does need to tag along - right until combat is joined. It makes sense, then, to use the drones as "carriers" for the control unit.

I'm not familiar with the term "combat credible engine". What is that?
It is an engine capable of moving a set of weapons fast enough to catch a starship. I.e. it is a starship engine. Those don't come at the size of a walnut in the 24th century yet. But if they did, obviously the E-D would have them.

Would this mean that automated defensive satellites have no place in battle since they probably have no significant means of propulsion?
Hardly. But such "drones" would only cover an extremely narrow area of warfare; in order to cover any appreciable part of it, you need automated starships, not sessile guns.

Try to imagine a runabout without the need for all the area given to the crew (saving about 70-80% of space). It seems to have a capable array of weaponry.
No, it does not. Captain Keogh was right to dismiss it as fit only to fight glorified shuttlecraft - it has never stood any chance against capital ships, as nicely evidenced e.g. by "Armageddon Game". It has never even stood a chance against the smallest Jem'Hadar ships, apart from "Treachery, Faith and the Great River" where the first of the titular buzzwords was key to victory.

So that is completely inaccurate. I'm going to assume you either had bad information or misstated what you actually meant to say.
Nope. Neither the Reaper nor the Gray Eagle has any place in this comparison, as they are not combat drones - all they can do is assassinate helpless victims.

A combat drone, capable of fighting at least its peers (and by your criteria, its biggers), starts out at the size range of X-47. That's a hugely complex machine, only theoretically capable of combat even at its projected operational best, and vastly more expensive to operate than a F-16 category crewed combat aircraft.

You don't get a combat drone by installing a toy aircraft engine or an automobile powerplant. You need a turbojet of credible size. And the Reaper has none, and cannot do combat.

Current drones don't have to be the same size or larger than manned aircraft.
Well, of course not, if they are intended to be incapable of combat. Which is the design goal of all the currently operational flying drones - they are either pure eyes-in-the-sky or delivery platforms for weapons capable of hurting only the softest of targets, with the theoretical ability to hit a moving target now very gradually translating into operational reality. Hell, a Reaper can't even actually shoot down a Reaper despite its ability to carry light fire-and-forget AAMs.

The Dominion lost the war. As a result, they were asked to give up any territory taken during the conflict with the Federation.
That's pure conjecture - we never heard of any sort of territorial agreements. Or of disarmament or withdrawal or anything like that.

That "the Dominion" lost is already ample proof that the Dominion would win all other wars hands down. After all, it only barely lost this one without hands, feet, head or half the torso! You aren't entitled to misusing the concept of "the Dominion" as applying to a tiny beachhead force when the point of the discussion is a rematch between the actual Dominion and the Federation (and hopefully a few allies on the UFP side again).

Timo Saloniemi
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Old July 11 2013, 08:38 PM   #56
Sran
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
So - you claim to post here in order to show not that another poster is wrong/right/tell your thoughts on the subject, but to show that a poster didn't use semantics to your liking? And you call my POV limited? Really?
Yes, because you're clearly incapable of grasping such a basic concept.

Edit_XYZ wrote:
Luckily for you, your previous posts contradict your latest claim:
And that's where you're wrong (again).

You've got to be kidding me. The Dominion lost the war with the Federation, yet they had no trouble beating them? Are you trying to be funny?
I said nothing in this statement about the Federation having superior military capabilities. What I did say that was AllStarEntprise's argument that the Dominion "kicked the Federation's teeth in" despite losing the war they were fighting is erroneous.

Edit_XYZ wrote:
Wrong. I'll grant that the Dominion tested the Federation as never before, but that's as far as it goes. The Dominion lost the war. As a result, they were asked to give up any territory taken during the conflict with the Federation. That's not a victory in any way, shape, or form. The combatants of a war don't receive ribbons at its conclusion merely because they participated in it.
My point in making this statement was that it's a mistake to claim that the Dominion achieved a victory of any kind simply because they proved to be a challenging foe for the Federation- something that AllStarEntprise mistakenly argued in an earlier post. Once again, I said nothing of either government's military prowess or relative fleet strengths and weaknesses. Your inference that I have is off the mark.

Edit_XYZ wrote:
All about the relative power of the federation/dominion. Little about AllStarEntpris's post building.
I've already made my point, but I'll say it again for clarity's sake: you're wrong. I suggest you take the time to carefully read and understand my points before responding to them. If that's proving to be too difficult a task, then move on.

--Sran
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Old July 11 2013, 08:45 PM   #57
Sran
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Timo wrote: View Post
That "the Dominion" lost is already ample proof that the Dominion would win all other wars hands down. After all, it only barely lost this one without hands, feet, head or half the torso! You aren't entitled to misusing the concept of "the Dominion" as applying to a tiny beachhead force when the point of the discussion is a rematch between the actual Dominion and the Federation (and hopefully a few allies on the UFP side again).
Nor have I misused it, Timo. Whether one is talking about the entirety of a government's military or merely a small fraction of it, it's perfectly acceptable to refer to said power by name in describing a sequence of events relevant to a war scenario. The Dominion may have sent only a small number of their vessels into the Alpha Quadrant, but that doesn't change the reality that they were defeated by the Federation.

I don't mean to imply that the same result would occur were they able to use their entire fleet from the Gamma Quadrant (and I haven't despite what a few others insist on believing), but it's not appropriate to argue that the Dominion wasn't really the Dominion because they didn't have enough ships. That they underestimated the Federation (and its allies) is no fault of Starfleet's. It's merely a reflection of the Founders' overconfidence.

--Sran
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Old July 11 2013, 08:51 PM   #58
Timo
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Whether one is talking about the entirety of a government's military or merely a small fraction of it, it's perfectly acceptable to refer to said power by name in describing a sequence of events relevant to a war scenario.
Nope - it is a deliberate misuse. You have two different definitions of "they" here, and disingenuously try to blur them. Please cease and desist, as this only makes you look like a total idiot.

That they underestimated the Federation (and its allies) is no fault of Starfleet's.
What underestimation are you talking about? The amount of forces sent to Alpha was in no way decided by "them", but by circumstances.

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Old July 11 2013, 09:15 PM   #59
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Sran wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
So - you claim to post here in order to show not that another poster is wrong/right/tell your thoughts on the subject, but to show that a poster didn't use semantics to your liking? And you call my POV limited? Really?
Yes, because you're clearly incapable of grasping such a basic concept.
That would be either you, Sran, are clearly incapable of admitting you're wrong and hiding behind semantic irrelevancies/ad personams or you are clearly incapable of presenting your point in writing in an intelligible manner.
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Old July 11 2013, 09:27 PM   #60
Sran
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Timo wrote: View Post
Nope - it is a deliberate misuse. You have two different definitions of "they" here, and disingenuously try to blur them. Please cease and desist, as this only makes you look like a total idiot.
I don't recall you being made a part of the moderator staff here, Timo. I'll post what I like. If you don't agree, that's fine, but I won't have you dictating what I am or am not allowed to argue. It's not your call to make, as much as you appear to believe otherwise.

Timo wrote:
What underestimation are you talking about? The amount of forces sent to Alpha was in no way decided by "them", but by circumstances.
The Dominion believed they'd be able to defeat the Federation in a matter of weeks following the original signing of their agreement with Cardassia. In the months that followed, weekly convoys of ships, troops, and equipment arrived from the Gamma Quadrant to bolster their military forces within Cardassian space.

It's not clear why the troop movements happened on a weekly basis, but given the Dominion's penchant for assembling troops and building ships quickly (something supported numerous times on screen), it's surprising that they would not endeavor to send either more frequent reinforcements or larger convoys to Cardassia: their remaining military presence in the GQ would not have suffered for the transfers.

Weyoun tells Sisko that the convoys are an attempt by the Dominion to reassure the Cardassian people that their allies will adequately support them given the planet's economic woes and the military devastation wrought by the war with the Klingons. It's not known if his remarks are genuine given that they followed Sisko's statement that he would not remove the mines being placed at the mouth of the wormhole, but if we're to believe that they're accurate, it would seem that the Dominion's strategy was influenced at least in part by the Cardassian's cries for help rather than by the perceived threat the Federation and its allies represented.

That the Dominion was later thwarted by circumstances beyond their control is something that they could not have foreseen, but as they'd already underestimated the Federation by not arranging for additional soldiers and vessels, they have only themselves to blame for being caught unprepared. Their remaining Alpha Quadrant forces may have been enough to defeat the Federation had the Romulans not entered the war, but we'll never know for sure.

Whatever the case may be, I'm not placing an asterisk next to the Dominion's name because they didn't have enough soldiers fighting for them.

--Sran
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