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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old July 10 2013, 12:37 PM   #196
Guy Gardener
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

Oh, not with yours honey.

Never with yours.
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Old July 10 2013, 05:09 PM   #197
Anwar
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

MacLeod wrote: View Post

TOS was a product of it's time,
Oh, that old excuse gets flung around too much.

by the time VOY rolled around having strong continuity was part of what a portion of the general TV audiance wanted.
Even by the mid 90s, serialization wasn't that much in style.

VOY was an episodic show when it should have been a serialised show, VOY was an episodic show when TV was shifting towards a more serailised approach.
If they'd done what Berman had wanted and waited til after DS9 to do the show, that when the show would've been more serialized because by 2000 serialization was more common, not 1995.

All TV shows have minor falws, no one is arguing that they don't.
Except in VOY's case folks let the petty flaws eclipse anything else and ruin it for everyone who can look past those because those petty flaws are all they care about.

Take for example the premise of VOY, we are told time after time during the run of the show that they have to watch their resources. Yet the ship looks like it had ust left Utopia Planitia shipyards virtucally every week, can seemingly build shuttlecrafts at will etc.. But even if we accept that they build a new back-up module for the EMH inbetween episodes, They never build another one when that one was lost? Why a lack of resources.
The backup module was based on advanced tech from hundreds of years in the future and thus would be harder to duplicate compared to normal stuff from their own time. It's not hard to figure out.

Of course different people have differene tolerance levels for mistakes, continuity errors. And VOY did have some good episodes.
VOY's audience had NO tolerance, that's the difference between them any any other Trek show.

Hell, if "Scorpion" was a TNG episode no one would claim it ruined the Borg but if VOY does it then the story will be nitpicked to death and no one will care about any of the story's good points.
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Old July 10 2013, 05:10 PM   #198
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

teacake wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Most of the forums I've visited and been a part of (and I don't go out looking for negativity) as well as recollections when that episode aired from people I knew watching the show.

VOY had an audience that was out to rip into the show for any slights, no matter how petty.
Do you agree that ENT's audience was equally harsh?
At first it was, but even ENT's got a better treatment over time (mainly because it lasted only 4 seasons) compared to how still gripe over VOY.
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Old July 10 2013, 05:17 PM   #199
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

If TOS was a product of its time, I can't help wonder what's terrible wrong with this time, considering the many crappy series we have to stand these days.

As for this thread, I still can't help wondering why we have this debate. What's the point in wanting to kill off the main characters in a series? Even in my worst anti-Seven days, I wouldn't dream of killing off the character. That would have been totally wrong.
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Old July 10 2013, 05:54 PM   #200
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

Lynx wrote: View Post
If TOS was a product of its time, I can't help wonder what's terrible wrong with this time, considering the many crappy series we have to stand these days.
Trust me, there was likely a ton of crap back then too. It's just that they got canceled and folks forgot about them, whereas now thanks to the Net and things we can't easily forget.
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Old July 10 2013, 07:08 PM   #201
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

Lynx wrote: View Post
As for this thread, I still can't help wondering why we have this debate. What's the point in wanting to kill off the main characters in a series? Even in my worst anti-Seven days, I wouldn't dream of killing off the character. That would have been totally wrong.
What's "wrong" about it? Was it wrong to kill Ben Kenobi in Star Wars? Was it wrong to kill Boromir in LotR? Was it wrong to kill any of the innumerable characters in Lost who died?

These people are in extreme circumstances, and I think there's a valid argument that what's "wrong" is painting the situation as though everyone "important" is going to come through it unharmed. Though God help you if your name isn't in the main credits.
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Old July 10 2013, 07:11 PM   #202
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

DS9 was about an interstellar war, yet the only main cast member who died was killed off only because of a contract dispute not because they WANTED to get rid of her. If not for that, NO ONE in the main cast would've died.

Which is a lot sillier than a ship on an extended deep-space mission having it's crew survive.
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Old July 10 2013, 07:14 PM   #203
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

Anwar wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post

TOS was a product of it's time,
Oh, that old excuse gets flung around too much.

by the time VOY rolled around having strong continuity was part of what a portion of the general TV audiance wanted.
Even by the mid 90s, serialization wasn't that much in style.



If they'd done what Berman had wanted and waited til after DS9 to do the show, that when the show would've been more serialized because by 2000 serialization was more common, not 1995.



Except in VOY's case folks let the petty flaws eclipse anything else and ruin it for everyone who can look past those because those petty flaws are all they care about.

Take for example the premise of VOY, we are told time after time during the run of the show that they have to watch their resources. Yet the ship looks like it had ust left Utopia Planitia shipyards virtucally every week, can seemingly build shuttlecrafts at will etc.. But even if we accept that they build a new back-up module for the EMH inbetween episodes, They never build another one when that one was lost? Why a lack of resources.
The backup module was based on advanced tech from hundreds of years in the future and thus would be harder to duplicate compared to normal stuff from their own time. It's not hard to figure out.

Of course different people have differene tolerance levels for mistakes, continuity errors. And VOY did have some good episodes.
VOY's audience had NO tolerance, that's the difference between them any any other Trek show.

Hell, if "Scorpion" was a TNG episode no one would claim it ruined the Borg but if VOY does it then the story will be nitpicked to death and no one will care about any of the story's good points.
1.>I Never said serialisation was in style just that a part of the aduiance wanted it, and by the mid-ninties it was starting to shift toward serialised shows.

If you read a book and in chapter 7, the writer tells you they don't have this and it magically appears in chapter 14, the reader will go, what! where did that come from. At it's core visual media is not much different from print media in how it should tell it's story.

As for the EMH back-up module it magically appeared one episode, despite being said they didn't have a way to back-up the EMH just episodes before. They then can never construct another one. No reason given for why they suddenly have one, and no reason given for why they can't built another one.

The Borg started to go downhill in TNG esp. around the two-parter "Descent"

Surely some of those who critise VOY feel it could have been better if they paid attention to some of these details. If you note I said it was one of VOY better episodes and Robert Picardo was one of the best things about VOY. SO I can praise something but that doesn't preclude me from levelling critisim at something where I think they could have and should have done better.
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Old July 10 2013, 07:21 PM   #204
Anwar
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
1.>I Never said serialisation was in style just that a part of the aduiance wanted it, and by the mid-ninties it was starting to shift toward serialised shows.
It wasn't common enough, if they'd waited until 2000 then it would be and they'd also have had enough time to hire new writers and work out VOY's conceptual problems (it had some).

If you read a book and in chapter 7, the writer tells you they don't have this and it magically appears in chapter 14, the reader will go, what! where did that come from.
If chapter 14 took places years after chapter 7, then it'd be easier to believe that they found this "something" and then said chapter also explains why they didn't have it in the present via flashback (lost in an attack) then there's your explanation.

No reason given for why they suddenly have one, and no reason given for why they can't built another one.
It's fancy future tech they couldn't easily replicate. They did, once, and then lost it (explained in the episode) and then couldn't make another one because...Hey! It's fancy future tech!

The Borg started to go downhill in TNG esp. around the two-parter "Descent"
And yet everyone blames VOY and never TNG.

If you note I said it was one of VOY better episodes and Robert Picardo was one of the best things about VOY. SO I can praise something but that doesn't preclude me from levelling critisim at something where I think they could have and should have done better.
The point is, folks take the minor petty things and see ONLY that and don't care about any of the good. Because the bad is all that matters.

If they really liked that episode, then they wouldn't care much about the backup thing and just enjoy the episode. Instead they complain and complain and ruin it all.
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Old July 10 2013, 10:40 PM   #205
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

Anwar wrote: View Post
DS9 was about an interstellar war, yet the only main cast member who died was killed off only because of a contract dispute not because they WANTED to get rid of her. If not for that, NO ONE in the main cast would've died.

Which is a lot sillier than a ship on an extended deep-space mission having it's crew survive.
That DS9 has the same fault VOY has doesn't make it not a fault.
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Old July 11 2013, 12:34 AM   #206
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

DonIago wrote: View Post

What's "wrong" about it? Was it wrong to kill Ben Kenobi in Star Wars?
He was old, real old. It was a tiny bit wrong to kill off Qui Gon though because he was a great character and much hotter than most of Star Wars.


Was it wrong to kill Boromir in LotR?
No because Tolkien did it 48 years before the film came out.

Was it wrong to kill any of the innumerable characters in Lost who died?
That was the only thing that kept that show remotely interesting.

And really, the question to be asking here is "Was it wrong to kill Kirk?"
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Last edited by teacake; July 11 2013 at 12:52 AM.
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Old July 11 2013, 12:36 AM   #207
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

Anwar wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Most of the forums I've visited and been a part of (and I don't go out looking for negativity) as well as recollections when that episode aired from people I knew watching the show.

VOY had an audience that was out to rip into the show for any slights, no matter how petty.
Do you agree that ENT's audience was equally harsh?
At first it was, but even ENT's got a better treatment over time (mainly because it lasted only 4 seasons) compared to how still gripe over VOY.
But what do you base this on? Blogs? Friends? This forum?
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Old July 11 2013, 04:17 AM   #208
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

teacake wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post

What's "wrong" about it? Was it wrong to kill Ben Kenobi in Star Wars?
He was old, real old. It was a tiny bit wrong to kill off Qui Gon though because he was a great character and much hotter than most of Star Wars.


Was it wrong to kill Boromir in LotR?
No because Tolkien did it 48 years before the film came out.

Was it wrong to kill any of the innumerable characters in Lost who died?
That was the only thing that kept that show remotely interesting.

And really, the question to be asking here is "Was it wrong to kill Kirk?"
Re Boromir, why are you assuming I'm talking about the film rather than the book?

I disagree with regards to Lost, but oh well.

It wasn't wrong to kill Kirk...the idea merited consideration, it was the execution that was somewhat lacking...but even then at least what we got was better than what we might have gotten.

Anyway, "wrong" is a silly word to use in this case.
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Old July 11 2013, 04:33 AM   #209
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

True about the wrong.

And I assumed you meant the films with Boromir because of all the obvious reasons. As to whether it was okay to kill him in the books, sure. It's not like anyone missed him.
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Old July 11 2013, 06:53 AM   #210
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Re: Better if they had allowed main cast to die?

Well, the main thrust of my argument was that while some people may find it "disagreeable" to kill a main character, "wrong" isn't, IMO at least, an appropriate term.

I'm sure there are people who missed Boromir after he died. Given his failure with regards to the ring and his subsequent attempt to redeem himself, I would have been curious to see how his character might have developed if he'd had the opportunity.
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