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Old July 10 2013, 08:34 PM   #151
Allyn Gibson
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
I don't think he should apologise if he doesn't mean it. What would the point even be?
Going back to what I said a few pages back, because based on his work I would expect better of him. Doubling down on his intolerance, which is what he's done, runs counter to the ideals espoused and behaviors exhibited by the characters that made his career and his fame.
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Old July 10 2013, 08:36 PM   #152
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
YJAGG wrote:
never read it ( I know shame on me) did read the sumary and to me honest - 20 plus years later - meh

unless it's a crappy movie and they want all the hardcore right wingers to come and support it, by alienating gays... but I do marvel at the irony of intolerance for the intolerent
Wow, what a thoughtful contribution to the discussion.

.
everyone as an opinion and an ass and both of them can stink


reading this reminded me of something if recall- after TNG -The Outcast came out ( no pun intended) there was an article in magizine that said (bear with me) that Gene was not really a gay rights fan -anyone know the article I am thhinking of?
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Old July 10 2013, 08:45 PM   #153
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
I don't think he should apologise if he doesn't mean it. What would the point even be?
Going back to what I said a few pages back, because based on his work I would expect better of him. Doubling down on his intolerance, which is what he's done, runs counter to the ideals espoused and behaviors exhibited by the characters that made his career and his fame.
I don't think he should back down from his position just to be some PR-friendly talking head when the movie is released. It never seems real when celebrities do this and the gay community would just accuse him of lying if he did anyway. When Michael Richards made a public declaration that he wasn't a racist after that whole "nigger"-gate incident, absolutely nobody believed it.

The gay community will vote with their wallets by boycotting Ender's Game, a movie that most of these people would not have seen anyway judging by the general unfamiliarity with Card in many of his hate circles. Myself, I'll definitely be seeing it. Though I have worries it'll be an Abrams-esque disposable action movie instead of the slower film it should be.
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Old July 10 2013, 08:47 PM   #154
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

YJAGG wrote: View Post

everyone as an opinion and an ass and both of them can stink
but not everyone can talk out of both
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Old July 10 2013, 08:50 PM   #155
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

YJAGG wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
YJAGG wrote:
never read it ( I know shame on me) did read the sumary and to me honest - 20 plus years later - meh

unless it's a crappy movie and they want all the hardcore right wingers to come and support it, by alienating gays... but I do marvel at the irony of intolerance for the intolerent
Wow, what a thoughtful contribution to the discussion.

.
everyone as an opinion and an ass and both of them can stink


reading this reminded me of something if recall- after TNG -The Outcast came out ( no pun intended) there was an article in magizine that said (bear with me) that Gene was not really a gay rights fan -anyone know the article I am thhinking of?
I never saw that article. I do remember though an article leading into season 5 of TNG when Gene or somebody else talked about how the series would go further that season to show gay crew on board the ship. The idea was that there would be same-sex couples in the corridors or in Ten Forward just going about their daily lives. That, sadly, never came to pass.
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Old July 10 2013, 09:06 PM   #156
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
If people try to picket a funeral or whatever then they should be legally stopped, but that's really nothing to do with the opinion expressed. That's just a violation of people's right not to be harassed. I'd expect the same if a crowd of people arrived at a funeral holding signs with Jason David Frank's face on them and singing the Power Rangers theme tune.

I don't think we should really have laws specifically stopping people from saying certain things. I don't think that's any of the government's business.

In life you are going to come across ideas you disagree with or that make you angry but that's just how reality is. Liberals shouldn't expect the government to always cushion them from it, it just makes them more sensitive and is counter-productive.
You contradicted yourself. I don't think people should be allowed to protest a funeral and need to be legally stopped from doing so, then you attack liberals because you think they want to protect people from opinions they don't like.

Protesting a funeral is the actions of a scumbag, but even scum has a right to free speech in America. They're also openly hated by pretty much everyone in the country. Is it right to protest a funeral, I don't think so. But I cannot deny someone's right to say something. Especially on public land, which is what they do. They'd quickly get tossed out of private land and rightly so. That's how free speech works, it protects all speech not just popular speech. I don't know why you keep claiming that liberals are trying to silence opinions when all that is being said that some people refuse to see a movie because of the actions of the man who wrote the novel it is based on. That isn't censorship, that's capitalism. If you don't like a product for some reason, don't buy it. No one here has said that Card shouldn't be allowed to say whatever he wants or write whatever he wants. Just that they don't want him to get their money. Other people, like yourself, are free to do so if you wish. The movie may succeed and it may fail. Card will likely have little effect on the actual box office returns, so the movie will stand or fall on its own merits. But if a few don't want to see it because of what Card said, he has only himself to blame.
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Old July 10 2013, 09:09 PM   #157
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

theenglish wrote: View Post
YJAGG wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post

Wow, what a thoughtful contribution to the discussion.

.
everyone as an opinion and an ass and both of them can stink


reading this reminded me of something if recall- after TNG -The Outcast came out ( no pun intended) there was an article in magizine that said (bear with me) that Gene was not really a gay rights fan -anyone know the article I am thhinking of?
I never saw that article. I do remember though an article leading into season 5 of TNG when Gene or somebody else talked about how the series would go further that season to show gay crew on board the ship. The idea was that there would be same-sex couples in the corridors or in Ten Forward just going about their daily lives. That, sadly, never came to pass.
I recall reading that someone pitched an idea to Gene that dealt with same sex realtionship not a main issue just a side note in a story - Gene said fine with me if so and so likes it - the person then went to see the decsion maker who was on the phone with gene and and they said Gene said I didn't want to do this- I don't lie for anyone...can nayone back me on up this either a Starlog, or Next gen magize article...
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Old July 10 2013, 09:16 PM   #158
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

That was David Gerrold in Cinefantastique, I think, talking about the script for Blood and Fire.

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Old July 10 2013, 09:19 PM   #159
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

ManOnTheWave wrote: View Post
That was David Gerrold in Cinefantastique, I think, talking about the script for Blood and Fire.
Yes. And it was Herb Wright who Gerrold went to talk to and who said he couldn't lie for anyone. It's also covered in Joel Engel's Gene Roddenberry: The Myth and the Man Behind Star Trek.
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Old July 10 2013, 09:31 PM   #160
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Card's being an idiot, but kinda always been that way, not a shocker. I'm just more of the type that doesn't give a shit what movie/rock stars, athletes, or I suppose authors think about politics or religion. Able to enjoy their work for what it is, and shut off their personal opinions just like every other retard on facebook, twitter, instagram, whatever. Pretty obvious fail on his argument, though, and one that several of the shoddy posters HERE use all the time. "You're not tolerant of my intolerance, so you're just as bad as me (or no fair!)" Yeah, ok...

Loved the book as a kid, plan to see the movie. Likely will be disappointed based on enjoying the book for the past 20-25 years, but hey, that's what happens usually when favorite books become movies. Whether he hates gays or takes it in the ass 5x a day (or in the case of many politicians and public figures, BOTH), won't really have any bearing on the movie for me...
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Old July 10 2013, 09:36 PM   #161
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
ManOnTheWave wrote: View Post
That was David Gerrold in Cinefantastique, I think, talking about the script for Blood and Fire.
Yes. And it was Herb Wright who Gerrold went to talk to and who said he couldn't lie for anyone. It's also covered in Joel Engel's Gene Roddenberry: The Myth and the Man Behind Star Trek.

Thank you both !
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Old July 10 2013, 09:48 PM   #162
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
You contradicted yourself. I don't think people should be allowed to protest a funeral and need to be legally stopped from doing so, then you attack liberals because you think they want to protect people from opinions they don't like.
Nope, I made it clear that if people were at a funeral shouting absolutely incomprehensible monkey jibberish next to the family then it'd still be wrong. The offensive opinion isn't what bothers me, it's people breaching other individuals' privacy and space, when they're unwanted.
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Old July 10 2013, 10:58 PM   #163
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

I suspect that this entire thing is Card setting himself up to be the victim of the Evil Gay Community if his film bombs, rather than having to acknowledge that perhaps it failed for creative reasons.

All of that aside, a major film is a collaborative work of hundreds of artists, so Card himself is just one small part of what went into it's creation. So while I think Card is a vile bigot, and I personally don't plan to see the movie, I don't really have a problem with others checking it out.
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Old July 10 2013, 11:18 PM   #164
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
You contradicted yourself. I don't think people should be allowed to protest a funeral and need to be legally stopped from doing so, then you attack liberals because you think they want to protect people from opinions they don't like.
Nope, I made it clear that if people were at a funeral shouting absolutely incomprehensible monkey jibberish next to the family then it'd still be wrong. The offensive opinion isn't what bothers me, it's people breaching other individuals' privacy and space, when they're unwanted.
Well, they aren't next to the family. Usually they're across the street. Also that's still allowed in America. You can be a total ass here. The only times you see the families of the people they protest is when they confront them. The Phelps are smart, they want you to come to them and attack them so they can sue you. Most of them are lawyers and they get a lot of money from it. They never seek people out and get right into their faces.

They're the ultimate test to free speech, but as long as they're allowed to do what they do, no one else is in danger of losing theirs. That's why we can't stop them, because then we may decide to limit some other group. It's a slippery slope argument to some degree I admit, but we can't call it free speech if we don't include all speech.
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Old July 10 2013, 11:38 PM   #165
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
You contradicted yourself. I don't think people should be allowed to protest a funeral and need to be legally stopped from doing so, then you attack liberals because you think they want to protect people from opinions they don't like.
Nope, I made it clear that if people were at a funeral shouting absolutely incomprehensible monkey jibberish next to the family then it'd still be wrong. The offensive opinion isn't what bothers me, it's people breaching other individuals' privacy and space, when they're unwanted.
Well, they aren't next to the family. Usually they're across the street. Also that's still allowed in America. You can be a total ass here. The only times you see the families of the people they protest is when they confront them. The Phelps are smart, they want you to come to them and attack them so they can sue you. Most of them are lawyers and they get a lot of money from it. They never seek people out and get right into their faces.

They're the ultimate test to free speech, but as long as they're allowed to do what they do, no one else is in danger of losing theirs. That's why we can't stop them, because then we may decide to limit some other group. It's a slippery slope argument to some degree I admit, but we can't call it free speech if we don't include all speech.
Popular speech doesn't need protecting.
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