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Old July 10 2013, 05:36 PM   #136
sidious618
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

TemporalFlux wrote: View Post
The amount of absolute hatred for Orson Scott Card astonishes me. This is the response to hatred? Greater hatred? I have rarely seen such a vicious crusade against one man.
What?! What hate? No one is saying he should die or be locked up or beaten. They're just saying his views are hateful and that they prefer not to give him any money.
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Old July 10 2013, 05:47 PM   #137
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

TemporalFlux wrote: View Post
The amount of absolute hatred for Orson Scott Card astonishes me. This is the response to hatred? Greater hatred? I have rarely seen such a vicious crusade against one man.
Where are you seeing this Greater hatred, please point to it.

His hate speech has advocated imprisoning people for being Gay (so they don't infect others with their Gayness) and overthrowing the Government if they grant us equal rights, which are Constitutionally protected, No one is issuing Death Threats, nor suggesting any kind of violence or imprisonment or taking away his right to spew his hatred.

We are simply refusing to put money into the pocket of a man who will turn around and use that money to commit a political Holy War against us. How is that greater hatred than advocating imprisonment because he doesn't approve of who you sleep with?

A Fundamentalist Christian like himself, might even say we are lovingly trying to guide him into the light, by showing him the consequences of spewing his hatred.
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Old July 10 2013, 05:47 PM   #138
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

theenglish wrote: View Post
[QUOTE =sonak;8360299]
junxon wrote: View Post

speech is not persecution. I am also extremely uncomfortable with laws against "hate speech." Well-intentioned as they may be, putting government in the role of censor is wrong. Also, "offense" is so subjective that they become hard to enforce.
I agree with this as well. There have been several controversial examples in Canada over the years of heavy handedness in applying the law. I apparently missed the point of several posts and was not clear what I was responding to.
sonak: speech can be persecution. if you were a gay person in a non gay-friendly area and had people shouting abuse at you every day for being gay, i think that would count.

theeenglish: you need to take out the other guy's quote = bit when quoting as this currently makes it look like i said what sonak did. seems to happen sometimes.
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Old July 10 2013, 06:33 PM   #139
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

TemporalFlux wrote: View Post
The amount of absolute hatred for Orson Scott Card astonishes me. This is the response to hatred? Greater hatred? I have rarely seen such a vicious crusade against one man.
I hope you condemn him for the same reasons. You want to see a vicious crusade, look at those who don't want gay to get married. It's pretty vicious.

Me? I'm not wanting to take his rights away (like he wants to do, or certain prevent people from enjoying rights). I just don't want him to have any of my money.

And that's vicious?

TheMasterOfOrion wrote: View Post
I listen to funk and hip-hop artsist, guys who were on coke, assaulted people, were DUI, had illegal firearm possesion, shot at cops, went to jail many times....however I will still listen to their art because art is just that, its not their political opinion or their life. Same with Richard Wagner he lived with fascism all around him during the German Nazi era, however Wagner's music was just music and people can listen to it today without being accused of supporting fascism.
It's a lovely false equivalency you've created here...

1. No one is saying Card can't do or write what he wants. Just like the funk and hip hop artists you CHOOSE to buy.

2. I don't recall any of those funk or hip-hop artists creating organizations that ACTIVELY seek to create legislation to make us all live on coke and assault people. They are expressing their lives. Just as Card does.

3. Wagner was dead almost 50 years before Hitler came to power.


Orson Scott Cards stupid opinion is just that....its just his stupid opinion
and it does not reflect the opinion of the whole studio or the hundreds of others who worked on the movie
Again, it's not JUST his opinion... it's that he's a BOARD member of an organization trying to stop equal rights. His money goes into that organization. Which he is free to do. As I am free not to give him one penny of my money.
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Old July 10 2013, 06:35 PM   #140
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
Lewis was not exactly the theological deep thinker that his fans took him for.
No, he wasn't. Lewis' Trilemma is about a deep as Pascal's Wager, which is to say that they're both about as deep as a puddle and just as (in)significant.

Mere Christianity and The Screwtape Letters are readable and I enjoy them, but Lewis' Christianity strikes me as a fuzzy, Christ-free Christianity that's more about being good and doing good than about the difficult stuff like redemption and metaphysics.

In short, he probably favored the heresy of Pelagius than the orthodoxy of Augustine, which is why his embrace by the "fire and brimstone" evangelicals has never made any sense to me because they wouldn't recognize his theology and he wouldn't recognize them as Christian.
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Old July 10 2013, 06:39 PM   #141
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

"Fire and Brimstone" Evangelicals tend to cherry pick. They do it with the Bible all the time.
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Old July 10 2013, 06:43 PM   #142
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Not too fussed about his religious views, the guy knew how to write absorbing children's fantasy fiction.
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Old July 10 2013, 06:51 PM   #143
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

junxon wrote: View Post
theenglish wrote: View Post
[QUOTE =sonak;8360299]
junxon wrote: View Post

speech is not persecution. I am also extremely uncomfortable with laws against "hate speech." Well-intentioned as they may be, putting government in the role of censor is wrong. Also, "offense" is so subjective that they become hard to enforce.
I agree with this as well. There have been several controversial examples in Canada over the years of heavy handedness in applying the law. I apparently missed the point of several posts and was not clear what I was responding to.
sonak: speech can be persecution. if you were a gay person in a non gay-friendly area and had people shouting abuse at you every day for being gay, i think that would count.

theeenglish: you need to take out the other guy's quote = bit when quoting as this currently makes it look like i said what sonak did. seems to happen sometimes.

well if they're shouting loudly enough, it can be a different offense, of "disturbing the peace." But conversation-level slurs, while they're offensive, are not something government should be involved in stopping.
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Old July 10 2013, 06:56 PM   #144
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Admiral2 wrote: View Post
If I wanted to boycott everything I watch or read written by someone I disagreed with politically I'd have to give up everything but the bible and the Left Behind series.
Exactly.

Admiral2 wrote: View Post
(Let's face it, sci-fi and fantasy writing is dominated by leftists.)
Horrendous generalities, but here it is: Sci-fi, being principally interested in understanding the present to speculate about the future, is intrinsically progressive (even tho there is a strong libertarian bend in many contemporary sci-fi works).

Bull. "Intrinsically" implies that the progressive bent in the sci-fi story is automatic. It's not. No ideology is automatic to a fiction story. If the science fiction I'm reading has a progressive - or conservative or libertarian or green or what have you - bend, that's because it was inserted by the author, who made a conscious or subconscious decision to include it.

And most of the time, the progressive bend is what I'm seeing, but if what you're saying is true, then any story that depicts the future would have the exact same trait. So then how do you explain Starship Troopers, or practically any other book Robert Heinlein wrote before the 80's?

Fantasy, on the other hand, being about an imaginary past with a strong emphasis on traditional values, is habitually conservative.
Again, bull, because this statement is based on a fundamental misunderstanding about Conservative Political thought, which is based on the uses and extent of government power, and has little to do with the dictionary definition of the word "conservative." It's also a pejorative Progressives typically level against Conservatives. (i.e. "He wants to live in the past!")
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Old July 10 2013, 07:15 PM   #145
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Wired did an article on the subject, an excellent read.

Here are some key bits.
In a recent statement to Entertainment Weekly, Orson Scott Card responded to a proposed boycott of the upcoming film adaptation of his novel Ender’s Game by informing the movie-going public that it doesn’t really matter that he’s been working ceaselessly for the last decade to make sure gay people don’t get basic human rights, or that he advocated the violent overthrow of the government should same-sex marriage become legal, or that he’s used his position as a popular author as a platform from which to spew increasingly aggressive anti-equality rhetoric like his comment in a 2004 essay that gays “cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society.”
[...]
His concern, ostensibly, is that someone might be petty enough not to see his movie simply because he spent years lobbying for laws that treated certain people as less than human. The fallacy he employs here — that calling out hate-speech is intolerance on par with curtailing the human rights of others — is a favorite fallback of cowards and bullies, and a way of evading responsibility for the impact of their words and actions.
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Old July 10 2013, 07:43 PM   #146
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

sonak wrote: View Post
But conversation-level slurs, while they're offensive, are not something government should be involved in stopping.
well i'm glad where i am has hate crime laws to protect minorities. Not that they always work
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Old July 10 2013, 08:02 PM   #147
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

If people try to picket a funeral or whatever then they should be legally stopped, but that's really nothing to do with the opinion expressed. That's just a violation of people's right not to be harassed. I'd expect the same if a crowd of people arrived at a funeral holding signs with Jason David Frank's face on them and singing the Power Rangers theme tune.

I don't think we should really have laws specifically stopping people from saying certain things. I don't think that's any of the government's business.

In life you are going to come across ideas you disagree with or that make you angry but that's just how reality is. Liberals shouldn't expect the government to always cushion them from it, it just makes them more sensitive and is counter-productive.
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Old July 10 2013, 08:17 PM   #148
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Card's defenders here and elsewhere appear pretty uninformed of or unwilling to examine what he's actually said - and worked for.

In any event, as posted elsewhere here's David Gerrold's response to Card's butthurt:

Puh-leeze.

After twenty years of despicably virulent homophobia ... no. This is just another detestable characterization of LGBT people -- that we are intolerant.

Intolerant? Of people who want to lock us up, put us in concentration camps, deny us our civil rights? Intolerant? Are you fucking kidding me?

You want me to be tolerant, Scott? First be one of those people who understands. Or to put it bluntly -- get your fucking foot off my neck, then we'll talk tolerance.

See, Scott -- I don't dislike you. I honestly don't. I think you're a very interesting author and you've turned out some works I admire. But you've made PR Mistake Number One. You've sided with hate-mongers. You've targeted a minority and you've characterized yourself as the righteous warrior. That gives you a short-term gain and a long-term loss. Look up Father Coughlin and Anita Bryant and Kirk Cameron.

Now you've made PR Mistake Number Two -- instead of honestly and sincerely apologizing for the hurt you have caused others, you have doubled down. You have played the martyr card, arguing that you are the victim.

What this demonstrates is that you have no idea of what the issue really is. It's about the 1138 rights, privileges, benefits, and obligations attendant to the civil contract of marriage. It's about social security benefits and inheritance and child custody and joint taxation and deathbed decisions and hospital visitation and adoption and community property and all the other things that you and your wife take for granted. It's about equality in the eyes of the law.

This is the goal that women set out to achieve when they first demanded the right to vote. This is the goal that Dr. Martin Luther King set out to achieve for African-Americans and other minorities when he started the Montgomery bus boycott. This is the goal that Harvey Milk set out to achieve when he opposed CA's Prop 6 and when he ran for the San Francisco Board of Supervisors.

Our nation was founded on the idea that "we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men (people) are created equal, endowed with certain inalienable rights -- and that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Your public statements, Orson Scott Card, put you on the wrong side of that declaration. Until you recognize that your public utterances have been at the service of bigotry and prejudice, there can be no redemption for you in the eyes of the LGBT community. Or anyone else, for that matter.
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Old July 10 2013, 08:21 PM   #149
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

I don't think he should apologise if he doesn't mean it. What would the point even be?
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Old July 10 2013, 08:22 PM   #150
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Re: Orson Scott Card "Please don't boycott my film!"

Card's defenders here and elsewhere appear pretty uninformed of or unwilling to examine what he's actually said - and worked for.

In any event, as posted elsewhere here's David Gerrold's response to Card's butthurt:

Puh-leeze.

After twenty years of despicably virulent homophobia ... no. This is just another detestable characterization of LGBT people -- that we are intolerant.

Intolerant? Of people who want to lock us up, put us in concentration camps, deny us our civil rights? Intolerant? Are you fucking kidding me?

You want me to be tolerant, Scott? First be one of those people who understands. Or to put it bluntly -- get your fucking foot off my neck, then we'll talk tolerance.

See, Scott -- I don't dislike you. I honestly don't. I think you're a very interesting author and you've turned out some works I admire. But you've made PR Mistake Number One. You've sided with hate-mongers. You've targeted a minority and you've characterized yourself as the righteous warrior. That gives you a short-term gain and a long-term loss. Look up Father Coughlin and Anita Bryant and Kirk Cameron.

Now you've made PR Mistake Number Two -- instead of honestly and sincerely apologizing for the hurt you have caused others, you have doubled down. You have played the martyr card, arguing that you are the victim.

What this demonstrates is that you have no idea of what the issue really is. It's about the 1138 rights, privileges, benefits, and obligations attendant to the civil contract of marriage. It's about social security benefits and inheritance and child custody and joint taxation and deathbed decisions and hospital visitation and adoption and community property and all the other things that you and your wife take for granted. It's about equality in the eyes of the law.

This is the goal that women set out to achieve when they first demanded the right to vote. This is the goal that Dr. Martin Luther King set out to achieve for African-Americans and other minorities when he started the Montgomery bus boycott. This is the goal that Harvey Milk set out to achieve when he opposed CA's Prop 6 and when he ran for the San Francisco Board of Supervisors.

Our nation was founded on the idea that "we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men (people) are created equal, endowed with certain inalienable rights -- and that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

Your public statements, Orson Scott Card, put you on the wrong side of that declaration. Until you recognize that your public utterances have been at the service of bigotry and prejudice, there can be no redemption for you in the eyes of the LGBT community. Or anyone else, for that matter.
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