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Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old July 10 2013, 05:54 AM   #61
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Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.

Candlelight wrote: View Post
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Yeah but you also risk alienating the fans by taking a Doctor many had taken to their hearts (in audio format) and then turning him into a monster.

"How dare Moffat ruin the 8th doctor blah blah blah..."
But was he a monster? It would make the character so feckin powerful for the first time in ages, explaining why he committed atrocities to end the war. I'm not saying go to the extent of having him lose the moniker of Doctor but the other Doctor's are clearly disturbed by what happened (although any of the incarnations would've been faced with the same situations would probably have acted the same).
If he committed atrocities, how would he NOT be a monster?
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Old July 10 2013, 09:23 AM   #62
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Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.

Starkers wrote: View Post
Yeah but you also risk alienating the fans by taking a Doctor many had taken to their hearts (in audio format) and then turning him into a monster.

"How dare Moffat ruin the 8th doctor blah blah blah..."
Yeah, that's the way I look at it.

I was saddened when I heard that Eccleston wouldn't be back (but that was his choice, not Moffat's) and then I was puzzled and annoyed when I heard that they weren't using McGann instead. But it does seem quite clear that there is a reason for using the Hurt Doctor as oppose to any other from 1-8, that he has a role and a function that they can't serve. And this guilty secret, whatever it is, is the reason.

I think it's a safe bet that had we suddenly discovered that McGann's Doctor had done something terrible and forfeited the name 'Doctor', there would be apoplexy among a lot of fandom, even those who haven't enjoyed the audio dramas involving that character and actor.
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Old July 10 2013, 12:47 PM   #63
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Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.

Oh, come on...Since when has the Doctor Who fandom ever been anything but rational and practical
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Old July 10 2013, 01:56 PM   #64
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Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.

It might be easier to list the dates when it has been rational and practical...

3rd April 1981, 16th May 1990 and 4th October 2005. I may have missed a day.
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Old July 10 2013, 02:33 PM   #65
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Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.

I really don't think Hurt's doctor's crime is ending the time war because:

- We have already covered that with the End of Time.

- Both the Daleks and the Time Lords were 'bad' and thus are not getting any sympathy from fans when they died.

- The Daleks have come back and the Time Lord can (and almost have) come back to, so therefor there is no real finality in there destruction.

- We have had years of the dealing with the Doctors 'Guilt' already.

The Doctors crime will involve the death of innocents. Perhaps during the Time War the Doctor had to commit genocide of an entire population of innocent beings in order to save the universe. It will be more something on these lines and not ending the Time War.
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Old July 10 2013, 02:50 PM   #66
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Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.

That's what I'm thinking too. It has to be the killing of innocents for the greater good. Like killing a single star whale to save millions of humans. Like Sisko getting people murdered in order to put an end to the Dominion War.
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Old July 10 2013, 05:39 PM   #67
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Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.

I have to agree with this, too. The Doctor owns what he did to end the Time War. It's something that is never very far from his mind.

Amy Pond: So there are other Time Lords, yeah?

The Doctor: No. There were, but there aren't. Just me now. Long story. It was a bad day, bad stuff happened and you know what? I'd love to forget it all, every last minute of it. But I don't.
But what the John Hurt incarnation did is something too horrendous for the subsequent incarnations to accept, or even think of forgiving, no matter how necessary it might have been at the time.
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Old July 10 2013, 05:58 PM   #68
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Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.

Mad Jack Wolfe wrote: View Post
I have to agree with this, too. The Doctor owns what he did to end the Time War. It's something that is never very far from his mind.

Amy Pond: So there are other Time Lords, yeah?

The Doctor: No. There were, but there aren't. Just me now. Long story. It was a bad day, bad stuff happened and you know what? I'd love to forget it all, every last minute of it. But I don't.
But what the John Hurt incarnation did is something too horrendous for the subsequent incarnations to accept, or even think of forgiving, no matter how necessary it might have been at the time.
Half of me agrees with that, too. but, the other half wonders, what exactly are they willing to pull out here for HurtDoctor's unforgivable crime? Regardless of wether he is disowned by his future selves, it's still The Doctor this crime is being hung on. How damaged are they really willing to make the character? how much worse can they actually go then his actions in The Time War, in a Children's show (Family show, if you prefer, but, nonetheless catering to children in many ways) with a Childrens' Hero that has been an Icon for 50 years?
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Old July 10 2013, 06:12 PM   #69
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Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Mad Jack Wolfe wrote: View Post
I have to agree with this, too. The Doctor owns what he did to end the Time War. It's something that is never very far from his mind.

Amy Pond: So there are other Time Lords, yeah?

The Doctor: No. There were, but there aren't. Just me now. Long story. It was a bad day, bad stuff happened and you know what? I'd love to forget it all, every last minute of it. But I don't.
But what the John Hurt incarnation did is something too horrendous for the subsequent incarnations to accept, or even think of forgiving, no matter how necessary it might have been at the time.
Half of me agrees with that, too. but, the other half wonders, what exactly are they willing to pull out here for HurtDoctor's unforgivable crime? Regardless of wether he is disowned by his future selves, it's still The Doctor this crime is being hung on. How damaged are they really willing to make the character? how much worse can they actually go then his actions in The Time War, in a Children's show (Family show, if you prefer, but, nonetheless catering to children in many ways) with a Childrens' Hero that has been an Icon for 50 years?
Sudden random thought: Perhaps he pulled a Captain Jack and killed one of his kin, or more specifically, Susan, for a greater cause? Not that I want that, but there it is. Otherwise, I completely agree with you.
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Old July 10 2013, 06:12 PM   #70
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Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.

Tom wrote: View Post
I really don't think Hurt's doctor's crime is ending the time war...
Snipping the rest of this, as it's not relevant to what I'm about to say.

What's to say that the Hurt Doctor's "crime" has anything at all to do with the Time War?

Here's what we know. Hurt is the Doctor between McGann and Eccleston. When we last saw McGann as the Doctor the Time War hadn't happened. When we first saw Eccleston as the Doctor the Time War was over. That's all we know definitively at this point in time.

Many are assuming that because Hurt comes between McGann and Eccleston and the Time War also happened between McGann's last appearance and Eccleston's first that it means that Hurt and the Time War are connected. But that assumption assumes facts not in evidence.

For all we know, the Hurt Doctor's "crime" is that he retired and opened up a wand shop in Diagon Alley instead of fighting evil.

The Time War could be a convenient hook for the anniversary story. Or the anniversary story could use an entirely different hook. We simply don't know yet.
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Old July 10 2013, 06:26 PM   #71
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Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
Tom wrote: View Post
I really don't think Hurt's doctor's crime is ending the time war...
Snipping the rest of this, as it's not relevant to what I'm about to say.

What's to say that the Hurt Doctor's "crime" has anything at all to do with the Time War?

Here's what we know. Hurt is the Doctor between McGann and Eccleston. When we last saw McGann as the Doctor the Time War hadn't happened. When we first saw Eccleston as the Doctor the Time War was over. That's all we know definitively at this point in time.

Many are assuming that because Hurt comes between McGann and Eccleston and the Time War also happened between McGann's last appearance and Eccleston's first that it means that Hurt and the Time War are connected. But that assumption assumes facts not in evidence.

For all we know, the Hurt Doctor's "crime" is that he retired and opened up a wand shop in Diagon Alley instead of fighting evil.

The Time War could be a convenient hook for the anniversary story. Or the anniversary story could use an entirely different hook. We simply don't know yet.
So, are you suggesting he's Olivander, or that he took over after Olivander got snatched?
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Old July 10 2013, 06:53 PM   #72
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Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
Tom wrote: View Post
I really don't think Hurt's doctor's crime is ending the time war...
Snipping the rest of this, as it's not relevant to what I'm about to say.

What's to say that the Hurt Doctor's "crime" has anything at all to do with the Time War?

Here's what we know. Hurt is the Doctor between McGann and Eccleston. When we last saw McGann as the Doctor the Time War hadn't happened. When we first saw Eccleston as the Doctor the Time War was over. That's all we know definitively at this point in time.

Many are assuming that because Hurt comes between McGann and Eccleston and the Time War also happened between McGann's last appearance and Eccleston's first that it means that Hurt and the Time War are connected. But that assumption assumes facts not in evidence.

For all we know, the Hurt Doctor's "crime" is that he retired and opened up a wand shop in Diagon Alley instead of fighting evil.

The Time War could be a convenient hook for the anniversary story. Or the anniversary story could use an entirely different hook. We simply don't know yet.
This may be true, but Moffat has been dropping hints in Season 7 about the Time War so it seems plausible that it is in relationship to that.

RTD had indicated somewhere that the Time War started in 'Genesis of the Daleks', but what if Hurts' Doctor started the main Time War somehow, and thus caused billions to die. We all know he stopped it (and maybe he had a deeper unknown obligation for stopping it than what is mentioned in the EoT), but could the Doctor be responsible for directly starting it?? Maybe he gave the Daleks something that allowed them to challenge the Time Lords and be a big threat to them in order to save innocent lives, not thinking of what could possibly happen later (Time War).
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Old July 10 2013, 07:41 PM   #73
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Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.

Tom wrote: View Post
Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
Tom wrote: View Post
I really don't think Hurt's doctor's crime is ending the time war...
Snipping the rest of this, as it's not relevant to what I'm about to say.

What's to say that the Hurt Doctor's "crime" has anything at all to do with the Time War?

Here's what we know. Hurt is the Doctor between McGann and Eccleston. When we last saw McGann as the Doctor the Time War hadn't happened. When we first saw Eccleston as the Doctor the Time War was over. That's all we know definitively at this point in time.

Many are assuming that because Hurt comes between McGann and Eccleston and the Time War also happened between McGann's last appearance and Eccleston's first that it means that Hurt and the Time War are connected. But that assumption assumes facts not in evidence.

For all we know, the Hurt Doctor's "crime" is that he retired and opened up a wand shop in Diagon Alley instead of fighting evil.

The Time War could be a convenient hook for the anniversary story. Or the anniversary story could use an entirely different hook. We simply don't know yet.
This may be true, but Moffat has been dropping hints in Season 7 about the Time War so it seems plausible that it is in relationship to that.
What hints? Need a reminder here.
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Old July 10 2013, 09:30 PM   #74
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Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.

Time War book in JTtCotT, mentions in the Final and a couple other places this season.
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Old July 10 2013, 09:34 PM   #75
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Re: The Official Speculation Thread about John Hurt's "Secret" Doctor.

Here is a thought -- maybe the Hurt Doctor's crime was resurrecting Rassilon? This would fit -- All the NuDoctors have owned up to ending the time war. However in EOT, Tennant's Doctor said that the Time Lords have become ruthless and power hungry (or something to the effect). Maybe the trigger for their fall was bringing back Rassilon. Hurt could have brought him back, sacrificing a regeneration in the process. This would allow Eccleston's doctor to end the time war. The "shame" comes not from the act of genocide of the daleks and already fallen timelords -- an act which likely had no possible recourse. Rather shame is from the knowingly and actively introducing a corrupting influence into Time Lord society, causing their fall.

In the course of the program, the Doctor has reluctantly killed and allowed others to die. He has even caused many others to die through his actions, inactions, errors. The doctor fights EVIL not DEATH. Everywhere he goes, he opposes tyranny, oppression and corruption.

How often do we see the Doctor take a deliberate stand FOR the establishment. FOR the oppressors? In Logopolis, we saw a good chunk of the universe be destroyed because he made a mistake and led the Master to Logopolis. By now, collateral damage is old hat to the Doctor.

Of course, this is only speculation, and we simply do not know. They may avoid the Time War altogether.
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