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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old July 10 2013, 07:18 AM   #2731
Devon
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Re: STID "tracking" for $85-90 million opening [U.S. box office]

section9 wrote: View Post
Nice to see Trek at the top.

Had the story been more tightly written and better reasoned, and made more sense to the audience, that number might be over 500. That's where word of mouth would have come in.

ST:TWOK did it all by word of mouth and fantastic writing, directing, and filmcraft.
No.
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Old July 10 2013, 10:42 AM   #2732
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Re: STID "tracking" for $85-90 million opening [U.S. box office]

Admiral Buzzkill wrote: View Post
People get into this false reasoning that really breaks down to "if I had liked the movie better, it would have been a bigger hit."
Yes, precisely. People conflate their own personal likes and dislikes and opinions and such with objective reality all the time. Very frustrating.
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Old July 10 2013, 04:24 PM   #2733
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Re: STID "tracking" for $85-90 million opening [U.S. box office]

section9 wrote: View Post
Nice to see Trek at the top.

Had the story been more tightly written and better reasoned, and made more sense to the audience, that number might be over 500. That's where word of mouth would have come in.

ST:TWOK did it all by word of mouth and fantastic writing, directing, and filmcraft.

If TWOK came out in the internet age, it would have been ripped to shreds like all movies are these days.
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Old July 10 2013, 04:31 PM   #2734
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Re: STID "tracking" for $85-90 million opening [U.S. box office]

Absolutely. It was nitpicked by Trek fans in 1982, but that stuff rarely spread beyond small groups in those days.
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Old July 10 2013, 06:42 PM   #2735
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Re: STID "tracking" for $85-90 million opening [U.S. box office]

section9 wrote: View Post
ST:TWOK did it all by word of mouth and fantastic writing, directing, and filmcraft.
Not really - STII was VERY hyped leading up to its release (and I was there in 1982 and saw it twice on opening day) - and the fact Spock dies was known (just not when in the film and they had the mis-direction of having Spock 'die' in the opening simulator scene - so many figured that was the 'death' leaked to fans); BUT, the fact was, it was just MUCH more enjoyable ST film than TMP was - and Star Trek fans were so happy about that we were indeed willing to IGNORE the GLARING plotholes and inconsistencies, such as:

1) The Reliant crew (Chekov in particular) not noticing that Ceti Alpha V exploded and other planet's orbits in the system were altered. (Of course if he's written competently, we have no film.)

2) The fact that (again by the Reliant's scans) the altered Ceti Alpha V was shown to be uninhabitable (with a toxic atmosphere; and even Terell and Chekov beam down in EVA gear) - YET - Khan and his people seem to survive in the open just using masks - and are able to trake long walk from therre containers (for what purpose who knows, buts it's the entire reason Terell and Chekov can check out the completely empty cargo containers.)

3) The fact that Chekov WASN'T a part of the Enterprise crew back when the events of "Space Seed" took place -- yet Kahn says to him, "I never forget a face!" (and sorry the fan rationalizations don't wash as there was a line in Season 2 TOS stating Chekov was 'recently transferred to the ship.'

I also have an issue with Kahn being described by Spock (and depicted in the film) as 'inexperienced (in a military sense) and showing "two-dimensional thinking". Why? Remember his background as stated in "Space Seed" - Kahn was one of the most militarily successful tyrants that conquered most of Asia before they were stopped <--- You don't do that without being a shrewd military leader; and any successful ground or air campaign would require three-dimensional thinking.

Again, NONE of the above prevented the film from being very entertaining; but, overall, nothing really stands out as overly exceptional with regard to the writing, directing or 'filmcraft'.

And I bring that up because as an old Star Trek fan (watching first run since 1969) - I honestly found Star Trek: Into Darkness equally as enjoyable and entertaining; and honestly, (depending on my mood) it's either in a tie with, or ahead of Star Trek II: TWoK as my overall favorite Star Trek feature film.
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Old July 10 2013, 08:19 PM   #2736
section9
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Re: STID "tracking" for $85-90 million opening [U.S. box office]

I don't think this film compares to WOK at all in writing and direction. I just don't. Maybe because I have an internal bias and because I think that the director was able to work wonders with a relatively restricted budget that had been scaled back from TMP.

This movie was good, but the plot holes alone kept it from being a better film. They were aiming for Dark Knight territory, and they missed. It's how they handled Khan/Cumberbatch: methinks so much more could have been done to make it a better character study that could have been more appealing to a wider audience. People are still attracted to drama and conflict.

However, I think that was too much of a reach for this writing team.

BTW, don't get me wrong. I enjoyed the film and I do think they resolved the fact that NuKirk wasn't ready for the Chair. The resolution of how he was made Shat-Ready was a little pat, however.
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Last edited by section9; July 10 2013 at 08:22 PM. Reason: Addendum
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Old July 10 2013, 08:52 PM   #2737
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Re: STID "tracking" for $85-90 million opening [U.S. box office]

I don't see this film as any worse than TWOK.

It shares a wonderful common thread with TWOK - friendship, family, sacrifice.

And it's action-packed - something many wished TOS movies could have been, and should have been, but Paramount never spent SW $$$ on Trek's budget.

It's a story about TOS characters as younger versions - Say what you will about the TOS movies, I wasn't too keen on my heroes going through mid-life crises while I was in my teens. (Ironically I'm at mid-life enjoying my heroes in their youth now!)

I'd say the only thing TWOK has going for it are the original cast, and rose-colored feelings of nostalgia. No one is arguing TWOK's longevity and cultural impact ("KHAAAANNN!!!!). I'm just saying, personally, strip away the good feelings and memories and they are about dead even.

And, I'd dare say, STiD may be a little bit better... All IMO of course.
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Old July 10 2013, 09:03 PM   #2738
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Re: STID "tracking" for $85-90 million opening [U.S. box office]

Noname Given wrote: View Post
3) The fact that Chekov WASN'T a part of the Enterprise crew back when the events of "Space Seed" took place -- yet Kahn says to him, "I never forget a face!" (and sorry the fan rationalizations don't wash as there was a line in Season 2 TOS stating Chekov was 'recently transferred to the ship.'
Episode and quote, please.
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Old July 10 2013, 09:09 PM   #2739
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Re: STID "tracking" for $85-90 million opening [U.S. box office]

Belz... wrote: View Post
Noname Given wrote: View Post
3) The fact that Chekov WASN'T a part of the Enterprise crew back when the events of "Space Seed" took place -- yet Kahn says to him, "I never forget a face!" (and sorry the fan rationalizations don't wash as there was a line in Season 2 TOS stating Chekov was 'recently transferred to the ship.'
Episode and quote, please.
He can't because it was NEVER said. Made up to cover his weak argument.

The actor came along for season 2---the crewman's posting was never mentioned. PERIOD. Red herring----of course he could have been aboard.
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Old July 10 2013, 09:10 PM   #2740
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Re: STID "tracking" for $85-90 million opening [U.S. box office]

Belz... wrote: View Post
Noname Given wrote: View Post
3) The fact that Chekov WASN'T a part of the Enterprise crew back when the events of "Space Seed" took place -- yet Kahn says to him, "I never forget a face!" (and sorry the fan rationalizations don't wash as there was a line in Season 2 TOS stating Chekov was 'recently transferred to the ship.'
Episode and quote, please.
"George Takei (Sulu) does not appear in this episode. Neither does Walter Koenig (Pavel Chekov), although Khan remembered him years later. There are several non-canon explanations for this, all pointing to some off-screen contact between the two characters."
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Old July 10 2013, 09:24 PM   #2741
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Re: STID "tracking" for $85-90 million opening [U.S. box office]

Yeah. And I believe it involved a urinal.
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Old July 10 2013, 09:41 PM   #2742
Grant
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Re: STID "tracking" for $85-90 million opening [U.S. box office]

Kruezerman wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
Noname Given wrote: View Post
3) The fact that Chekov WASN'T a part of the Enterprise crew back when the events of "Space Seed" took place -- yet Kahn says to him, "I never forget a face!" (and sorry the fan rationalizations don't wash as there was a line in Season 2 TOS stating Chekov was 'recently transferred to the ship.'
Episode and quote, please.
"George Takei (Sulu) does not appear in this episode. Neither does Walter Koenig (Pavel Chekov), although Khan remembered him years later. There are several non-canon explanations for this, all pointing to some off-screen contact between the two characters."

?????

He was asking for the (nonexistant) on-screen quote where it is stated Chekov had just came aboard as a member of the crew.

There never was any.
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Old July 10 2013, 10:35 PM   #2743
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Re: STID "tracking" for $85-90 million opening [U.S. box office]

Well, tomorrow night is the final showing in the last theater in my area to still be running the film. I wish I had the chance to see it more than once, but this has been a crazy summer. Still and all, thanks to an amazingly robust Foreign box office response, which for the first time has matched the US box office, Into Darkness brought in the most money of them all. It's great that Star Trek can coax over $444,000,000 out of people.
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Old July 10 2013, 10:37 PM   #2744
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Re: STID "tracking" for $85-90 million opening [U.S. box office]

Grant wrote: View Post
Kruezerman wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
Noname Given wrote: View Post
3) The fact that Chekov WASN'T a part of the Enterprise crew back when the events of "Space Seed" took place -- yet Kahn says to him, "I never forget a face!" (and sorry the fan rationalizations don't wash as there was a line in Season 2 TOS stating Chekov was 'recently transferred to the ship.'
Episode and quote, please.
"George Takei (Sulu) does not appear in this episode. Neither does Walter Koenig (Pavel Chekov), although Khan remembered him years later. There are several non-canon explanations for this, all pointing to some off-screen contact between the two characters."

?????

He was asking for the (nonexistant) on-screen quote where it is stated Chekov had just came aboard as a member of the crew.

There never was any.
Hence the part about there being "several non-canon explanations"? If it had been explicitly stated in dialogue such that it could be cited and quoted, what use would anyone have for a non-canon explanation? I suspect that Noname Given did see the "recently transferred" line somewhere, but may be remembering something from a novelization rather than a televised episode.
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Old July 10 2013, 10:43 PM   #2745
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Re: STID "tracking" for $85-90 million opening [U.S. box office]

Noname Given wrote: View Post
BUT, the fact was, it was just MUCH more enjoyable ST film than TMP was - and Star Trek fans were so happy about that we were indeed willing to IGNORE the GLARING plotholes and inconsistencies
Not a "fact", just an opinion. Despite having a great time watching ST II over and over, for me (and other newbie friends) it just didn't compare to TMP. And there were definitely fans at the time who pointed angrily at ST II/III, and especially IV, as "the dumbing down of Trek for the masses".

For me, I didn't get another Trek film experience the equal of TMP until... 2009.
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