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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old June 19 2013, 12:38 AM   #31
Photon
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Pretty simple to avoid bloodshed.

Use drones or even Remans and throw everything you had and destroy the Founders in a secret attack.

Obsidian Order had the idea right
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Old June 19 2013, 12:46 AM   #32
R. Star
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Not really... suppose that Tain didn't screw it up and destroyed the Founders. He wouldn't have gotten them all, being they're bound to be some undercover or elsewhere, and even if he somehow did... was he dumb enough to think the Vorta aren't the ones that provide the white and they wouldn't go apeshit in revenge?
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Old June 19 2013, 01:35 AM   #33
Sran
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Photon wrote: View Post
Pretty simple to avoid bloodshed.

Use drones or even Remans and throw everything you had and destroy the Founders in a secret attack.

Obsidian Order had the idea right
Why would the Remans go along with it?

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Old June 19 2013, 09:06 AM   #34
Nightdiamond
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

R. Star wrote: View Post
was he dumb enough to think the Vorta aren't the ones that provide the white and they wouldn't go apeshit in revenge?
He was-- he so much as stated if they wiped out the Founders, the Jem Hadar would run out of white. He was way off.

With the way the Dominion is set up, it is capable of running with hardly any input from a Founder. At least for a while anyway.

The 'do whatever it takes' to win philosophy has its ups and downs I think.

On the one end, doing things like pushing sentient beings to fight for you is dangerous and the Federation becomes the very thing it is fighting against.

But then again, 'photons be free"?? lol

On the other hand, those principles are going to give in to survival when a few million brutal Jem Hadar soldiers land on the planet.

Its too late then.

Remember that episode where during negotiations, they discovered a planet that could be used to make White for the Jem Hadar. They were running out of it.

Problem solved, keep the planet away from them right? Let them run out of white.

Julian argued that they should give them the planet. Because if they didn't, the Dominion would get desperate and launch an all out assault on the Federation that could cost many lives.

They're at war--that's going to happen anyway. On the one hand it makes sense, on the other it sounds really naive and super pacifist.
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Old June 19 2013, 12:16 PM   #35
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
was he dumb enough to think the Vorta aren't the ones that provide the white and they wouldn't go apeshit in revenge?
He was-- he so much as stated if they wiped out the Founders, the Jem Hadar would run out of white. He was way off.

With the way the Dominion is set up, it is capable of running with hardly any input from a Founder. At least for a while anyway.
Solution: kill all founders but a few - whom you will keep hostage, coercing the dominion to do your bidding.

The 'do whatever it takes' to win philosophy has its ups and downs I think.

On the one end, doing things like pushing sentient beings to fight for you is dangerous and the Federation becomes the very thing it is fighting against.

But then again, 'photons be free"?? lol
You don't need sentient anything to run ships.
A starship computer is better than all humans at many tasks and better than most humans at the rest.

Creativity?
The gains from it, during a large-scale war, are lost in the statistical white-noise.

Remember that episode where during negotiations, they discovered a planet that could be used to make White for the Jem Hadar. They were running out of it.

Problem solved, keep the planet away from them right? Let them run out of white.

Julian argued that they should give them the planet. Because if they didn't, the Dominion would get desperate and launch an all out assault on the Federation that could cost many lives.

They're at war--that's going to happen anyway. On the one hand it makes sense, on the other it sounds really naive and super pacifist.
Actually, it makes no sense - if Bashir thought that the federation was going to defeat the dominion without going through its full alpha quadrant forces or with little loss of life, he was deluding himself.

As for the planet - if you can't hold it, you must destroy it - in order to save many millions.
Sentient beings trump an all but barren rock any day of the week - unless you're an ecological fanatic, that is.
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Old July 9 2013, 03:52 PM   #36
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

To the initial premise of fighting a war with unmanned starships rather than manned starships given the high level of computer technology in the future.

It would seem that this type of warfare would be the most likely evolution but it makes for poor fiction. Computers could easily be programmed to recognize and react to hostile targets, communicate with other unmanned forces and engage in combat appropriately. It clearly sanitizes war . . . at least until some unmanned forces come into contact with manned vessels or planets . . . in which case it depends on the programming as to what happens then.

As an economic power the Federation would seem much more productive in mass producing unmanned ships and computer programs than training sentient beings to go into space to likely be killed in combat. It would seem a FAR more productive form of warfare for the Federation (or most races really).
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Old July 9 2013, 09:37 PM   #37
Photon
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If the Feds REALLY wanted to win

they could adapt future Voyager's weapons, stealth, and armor and tear into the Doms.

But but but...those were developed for the Borg....pretty sure if one transphasic torp can take out a Cube; what could one do to a Dominion space station or heavily guarded tactical facility.

Pretty sure SFI (or the remnants of 31) have access to the tech
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Old July 10 2013, 05:25 AM   #38
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

With the female changeling currently imprisoned by the Federation, and Odo returned to his people. Linking with them and by extension giving them the cure and the knowledge of what Section 31 did to win the war. This includes the Federation Council and Starfleet Command signing off on withholding the cure from the changelings. The changelings have cause to instigate another conflict in retaliation if they choose.

Question is, What do you think the Dominion could do differently to win next time? The Dominion had no trouble kicking in the teeth of the Fed., Klingons and Rommies.

I don't have the imagination to see what the Dominion could do better in a rematch. Would someone mind coming up with one?
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Old July 10 2013, 06:38 AM   #39
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Well an unmanned ship could be made smaller than a manned one. They'd basically be phaser emitters and torpedo launchers on a warp engine. And the Cardassians did use them to great effect in the Battle of Chin'toka. Squadrons of such ships could have a place in swarming on the more heavily armed ships allowing the bigger maned ships to hit easier targets and cause heavy damage to the Dominion Cardassian fleet. Until a Founder breaks into Starfleet Command and reprograms the drones.
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Old July 10 2013, 05:40 PM   #40
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Vanyel wrote: View Post
Well an unmanned ship could be made smaller than a manned one. They'd basically be phaser emitters and torpedo launchers on a warp engine. And the Cardassians did use them to great effect in the Battle of Chin'toka. Squadrons of such ships could have a place in swarming on the more heavily armed ships allowing the bigger maned ships to hit easier targets and cause heavy damage to the Dominion Cardassian fleet. Until a Founder breaks into Starfleet Command and reprograms the drones.
Not to mention that starships in the Star Trek Universe seem to be equiped with larger weapons that are more powerful to use against other large ships. When swarmed with smaller, faster drones it would be akin to swatting mosquitos with a baseball bat. Whichever mosquitos you hit will be out of play but its a terribly inefficient way to deal with large numbers of drones as you are taking significant damage.

It would be like building an APC with a TOW weapon system as its only armament. That might work great against other APCs, Tanks and buildings but would be terribly inefective against opposing infantry.
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Old July 10 2013, 08:50 PM   #41
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

KGator wrote: View Post
Vanyel wrote: View Post
Well an unmanned ship could be made smaller than a manned one. They'd basically be phaser emitters and torpedo launchers on a warp engine. And the Cardassians did use them to great effect in the Battle of Chin'toka. Squadrons of such ships could have a place in swarming on the more heavily armed ships allowing the bigger maned ships to hit easier targets and cause heavy damage to the Dominion Cardassian fleet. Until a Founder breaks into Starfleet Command and reprograms the drones.
Not to mention that starships in the Star Trek Universe seem to be equiped with larger weapons that are more powerful to use against other large ships. When swarmed with smaller, faster drones it would be akin to swatting mosquitos with a baseball bat. Whichever mosquitos you hit will be out of play but its a terribly inefficient way to deal with large numbers of drones as you are taking significant damage.

It would be like building an APC with a TOW weapon system as its only armament. That might work great against other APCs, Tanks and buildings but would be terribly inefective against opposing infantry.

You can also build large automated ships (not as large as their manned equivalents, though, due to these drones not needing many space-occupying systems there for the survival/comfort of the crew).
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Old July 10 2013, 09:02 PM   #42
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

And we still lack evidence that even great swarms of small ships would be effective against individual large ships. In "Preemptive Strike", a swarm soundly defeats a Galor class ship - but in "Sacrifice of Angels", several such swarms achieve little beyond annoying the Cardassians (which is their intended goal, but that's a different story).

The Prometheus from "Message in a Bottle" could well be a droneship, with two drones of tactically decisive size and a token crew of four for in situ remote control and supervision of the computer (I guess Starfleet does remember M-5). It could be a very effective weapon that minimizes risk to Starfleet crews. But it would not necessarily be a war-winner, as it could well be more expensive to create than a corresponding fully crewed unit in every respect.

What would the Dominion do differently the next time around? Well, they seem to have very loose sleeves full of extremely dirty tricks. They are not experienced fighters of wars (they confess to as much in "To the Death"), but they are expert frighteners and punishers. Most probably, they would skip war altogether and proceed directly to the stage of making everybody on Earth and other key worlds suffer and die.

Infiltration is a confirmed Dominion skill and capacity. Horrid bioweapons are their forte. It's difficult to see how Earth could stand a chance...

Timo Saloniemi
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Old July 10 2013, 09:16 PM   #43
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

Timo wrote: View Post
And we still lack evidence that even great swarms of small ships would be effective against individual large ships. In "Preemptive Strike", a swarm soundly defeats a Galor class ship - but in "Sacrifice of Angels", several such swarms achieve little beyond annoying the Cardassians (which is their intended goal, but that's a different story).

The Prometheus from "Message in a Bottle" could well be a droneship, with two drones of tactically decisive size and a token crew of four for in situ remote control and supervision of the computer (I guess Starfleet does remember M-5). It could be a very effective weapon that minimizes risk to Starfleet crews. But it would not necessarily be a war-winner, as it could well be more expensive to create than a corresponding fully crewed unit in every respect.

What would the Dominion do differently the next time around? Well, they seem to have very loose sleeves full of extremely dirty tricks. They are not experienced fighters of wars (they confess to as much in "To the Death"), but they are expert frighteners and punishers. Most probably, they would skip war altogether and proceed directly to the stage of making everybody on Earth and other key worlds suffer and die.

Infiltration is a confirmed Dominion skill and capacity. Horrid bioweapons are their forte. It's difficult to see how Earth could stand a chance...

Timo Saloniemi
Imagine a ship comprised of nothing but an engine, shield, computer, weapon (phaser or photon torpedo or some combination thereof) and other ancillary systems (commo, sensors, etc). These would be the equivalents to the same technology that you find on the larger manned ships. So either the drones weapons would be effective or the larger starship's weapons would be equally inneffective.

Take a look at today's drones. They essentially fire missles that were originally developed for manned platforms with great effect. Just continue that advancement to starship drones (perhaps its the term drone that is adding to the confusion).

Last edited by KGator; July 10 2013 at 09:28 PM.
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Old July 11 2013, 12:28 AM   #44
Sran
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
With the female changeling currently imprisoned by the Federation, and Odo returned to his people. Linking with them and by extension giving them the cure and the knowledge of what Section 31 did to win the war. This includes the Federation Council and Starfleet Command signing off on withholding the cure from the changelings. The changelings have cause to instigate another conflict in retaliation if they choose.
Because the Federation wouldn't give them a tactical advantage in a war that's already concluded? That's not justification for retaliation. And let me remind you that the Dominion signed an armistice with the Federation at the end of the war. If they attacked the Federation, they'd be in the wrong, not Starfleet.

AllStarEntprise wrote:
Question is, What do you think the Dominion could do differently to win next time? The Dominion had no trouble kicking in the teeth of the Fed., Klingons and Rommies.
You've got to be kidding me. The Dominion lost the war with the Federation, yet they had no trouble beating them? Are you trying to be funny?

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Old July 11 2013, 05:17 AM   #45
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Re: Federation vs The Dominiom: The Rematch.

A dominion expeditionary force lost a war against the federation/klingons/romulans.
The full might of the dominion (aka all forces the dominion can afford to send to the alpha/beta quadrants) would have no trouble crushing not only the federation, but the federation/klingons/romulans put together.
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