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Old July 9 2013, 10:20 PM   #166
sonak
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Cosmic Plan, I guess Riker would love the Intelligent Design idiots.
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
Pen Pals opens up a dumb can of worms, so we can assume, probably (From The Drumhead), that SF looked the other way because Picard saved the planet...from a NATURAL disaster...and without contamination.
edit: I also find it hilarious that the only thing standing between aliens swooping down and solving all our problems for us, is that...no one has thought to ask.
One of the reasons i find the second season of TNG interesting is what you discover when you pay close attention to certain conversations.

You'd assume a discussion about saving an inhabited planet would involve resources, whether it would cause more damage and whether they can do it without any contact.

Instead they're using metaphysical words like "fate" "cosmic plan".

How did a (theoretical) concept like a cosmic plan get mixed up with the PD?

sonak wrote: View Post

if there's a fire, and a Human being and a rabbit are trapped inside, do you think it's "pretty arrogant" to try to save the Human being instead of the rabbit?
One argument for sapient over non sapient is that the sapient being is more likely to express gratitude for what you've done.

the "cosmic plan" thing seems to come up a lot in the post-TOS PD. It's their way of justifying inaction without just coming out and admitting that they don't want to do it.

The "science" presented in "Dear Doctor" doesn't make any sense unless there's some kind of belief in a plan of a superior species and one "destined" for extinction or some such nonsense.
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Old July 10 2013, 12:23 AM   #167
Jonas Grumby
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

^ It's the key difference between the TOS PD and the TNG PD: The TOS Prime Directive was concerned with avoiding harm to aliens and alien cultures. The TNG version is concerned with protecting some vacuous "cosmic plan," even if that means allowing aliens and their cultures to be harmed to the point of extinction. Basically, it's a "get out of jail free card" for cowardice and inaction.
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Old July 10 2013, 12:28 AM   #168
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Jonas Grumby wrote: View Post
^ It's the key difference between the TOS PD and the TNG PD: The TOS Prime Directive was concerned with avoiding harm to aliens and alien cultures. The TNG version is concerned with protecting some vacuous "cosmic plan," even if that means allowing aliens and their cultures to be harmed to the point of extinction. Basically, it's a "get out of jail free card" for cowardice and inaction.
This post is spot-on.
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Old July 10 2013, 03:30 AM   #169
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

BillJ wrote: View Post
Jonas Grumby wrote: View Post
^ It's the key difference between the TOS PD and the TNG PD: The TOS Prime Directive was concerned with avoiding harm to aliens and alien cultures. The TNG version is concerned with protecting some vacuous "cosmic plan," even if that means allowing aliens and their cultures to be harmed to the point of extinction. Basically, it's a "get out of jail free card" for cowardice and inaction.
This post is spot-on.
I concur. One of the best examples of this cowardice is the fact that the UFP hid behind the Prime Directive to excuse their inaction during the occupation of Bajor by the Cardassians.
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Old July 10 2013, 04:49 AM   #170
Anwar
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Bajor was formally annexed by Cardassia, which meant that the Bajoran Government at the time signed a formal agreement that turned the world over to the Cardassians. It was probably because they were threatened or bribed into it but it was all 100% legal under whatever Galactic Laws the Powers in Trek all agree to. The Feds couldn't interfere willy-nilly like that if it was all legal.
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Old July 10 2013, 04:28 PM   #171
sonak
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Anwar wrote: View Post
Bajor was formally annexed by Cardassia, which meant that the Bajoran Government at the time signed a formal agreement that turned the world over to the Cardassians. It was probably because they were threatened or bribed into it but it was all 100% legal under whatever Galactic Laws the Powers in Trek all agree to. The Feds couldn't interfere willy-nilly like that if it was all legal.

er, "legal agreements" signed under duress are pretty much by definition not legitimate.


putting a gun to some one's head to sign a treaty doesn't make it legal. Not to mention, the Cardassians would STILL have been in violation of whatever interstellar conventions on war crimes there are, as they routinely used slave labor and torture, which would have justified Federation intervention.
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Old July 10 2013, 05:12 PM   #172
Anwar
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

sonak wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Bajor was formally annexed by Cardassia, which meant that the Bajoran Government at the time signed a formal agreement that turned the world over to the Cardassians. It was probably because they were threatened or bribed into it but it was all 100% legal under whatever Galactic Laws the Powers in Trek all agree to. The Feds couldn't interfere willy-nilly like that if it was all legal.

er, "legal agreements" signed under duress are pretty much by definition not legitimate.


putting a gun to some one's head to sign a treaty doesn't make it legal. Not to mention, the Cardassians would STILL have been in violation of whatever interstellar conventions on war crimes there are, as they routinely used slave labor and torture, which would have justified Federation intervention.
There's no proof it wasn't legitimate though. I'm saying it was likely forced or bribed, but still with legal authorization with no one to say otherwise.

And we don't know what the Galactic Laws are about annexed planets. The Romulans and Klingons likely did the same to their conquered planets but no one cared.
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Old July 14 2013, 10:37 PM   #173
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

sonak wrote: View Post
... "legal agreements" signed under duress are pretty much by definition not legitimate.
Add to that, any "legal agreement" entered into by the Bajorian government likely did not include slavery, interment camps, and stripping the planet of resources..

Plus sovereign entities (assuming Bajor was still consideed one) can exit agreements as they see fit. Usually with simple notification.

The Federation likely didn't just step in and end the Cardassian occupation because they themselves were engage in a long term conflict with the Cardassians. The Federation lacked the ability to make the Cardassian do anything at the time.

Very doubtful Starfleet had access to Bajor.


Last edited by Elvira; July 15 2013 at 12:03 AM.
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Old July 14 2013, 10:57 PM   #174
sonak
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

T'Girl wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
... "legal agreements" signed under duress are pretty much by definition not legitimate.
Add to that, any "legal agreement" entered into by the Bajorian government likely did include slavery, interment camps, and stripping the planet of resources..

Plus sovereign entities (assuming Bajor was still consideed one) can exit agreements as they see fit. Usually with simple notification.

The Federation likely didn't just step in and end the Cardassian occupation because they themselves were engage in a long term conflict with the Cardassians. The Federation lacked the ability to make the Cardassian do anything at the time.

Very doubtful Starfleet had access to Bajor.


That's not the reason Picard gave in "Ensign Ro." He indicated that it was just a matter of the principle of non-intervention.

If they were already INVOLVED in a conflict with the Cardassians, you'd think it would make them MORE inclined to intervene in Bajor, not less.

(look at how the Union army freed Southern Blacks during the American Civil War, or allied armies liberated concentration camps during WWII for example.)
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Old July 14 2013, 11:32 PM   #175
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Wouldn't Bajor's position have been more like a Soviet oblast, where there was formal democracy and constitutional government, which was then subverted by Moscow through collaborative Communist entities?
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Old July 15 2013, 12:02 AM   #176
Anwar
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Plus sovereign entities (assuming Bajor was still consideed one) can exit agreements as they see fit. Usually with simple notification.
Most likely, the annexation agreement included them giving up their Sovereignty to the Cardassians. Since it was a conquest in all but name.
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Old July 15 2013, 02:19 AM   #177
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

There is a moral question involved if the Federation was at war with Cardassia at the same time the occupation of Bajor was happening.

There's that old saying about those that stand by and do nothing while evil happens....

This would make what Keeve Falor said even more important;

You are innocent bystanders, and I cannot condone violence against those who are not our enemies.

PICARD: Then I don't understand why you are unwilling?

KEEVE: Because you are innocent bystanders. You were innocent bystanders for decades as the Cardassians took our homes, as they violated and tortured our people in the most hideous ways imaginable, as we were forced to flee.
If they were at war and they knew the Cardassians were brutalizing the Bajorans, and the Bajorans were screaming for help, then why couldn't they help liberate Bajor.

There has to be some inter-quadrant humanoid rights laws that all planets agree to in the 24th century

Plus, the Cardassians were always plotting to 'return' if the Federation ever left, even though it was painfully clear the Bajorans did not want them around in any capacity whatsoever.

If they returned, how exactly were they going to annex Bajor again so it would look legal?
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Old July 15 2013, 03:48 AM   #178
Anwar
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
If they were at war and they knew the Cardassians were brutalizing the Bajorans, and the Bajorans were screaming for help, then why couldn't they help liberate Bajor.
Bajor is pretty close to Cardassia itself. Maybe it was more heavily guarded at the time and most of the fighting was elsewhere?

There has to be some inter-quadrant humanoid rights laws that all planets agree to in the 24th century
Dunno, but the Klingons and Romulans have their own subjugated worlds and yet the Feds did nothing to liberate them and allow the Klingons and Romulans to continue to do so. Maybe there's some law wherein they all agree to allow the polities to do to their subjects as they wish, and the Bajorans would count as Cardassian subjects.

If they returned, how exactly were they going to annex Bajor again so it would look legal?
Who knows? They're enigmatic spoonheads. Probably had something up their sleeves.
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