RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,566
Posts: 5,514,221
Members: 25,147
Currently online: 542
Newest member: Wolfspaw

TrekToday headlines

Two New Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Dec 26

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 9 2013, 04:52 PM   #46
Star Wolf
Rear Admiral
 
Star Wolf's Avatar
 
Location: ciudad de Los Angeles
Re: Alien Nation fans?

Deckerd wrote: View Post
I don't think people are that different wherever they are. I think there would be very strong resistance to integration of an alien species unless there was a clear benefit for humanity and even then it would be a big ask for most people. A more likely scenario would be to put them in concentration camps and hope that someone else will deal with it. Either that or put them in self-governing reservations in the back end of nowhere.
However Alien Nation took place in a liberal democracy and while some may have decided to push them into the seas, maybe a reason why they were settled on the coast was to make a final solution easier if it came to that, others would push for full freedom. And a judge, not a policeman/soldier would have the ultimate decision making power over freedom or concentration camp.

Would have it been worth a full civil war? In the show no, however the former white supremacist linked up with other to form a purist group which is stronger then the present day or 1990s Aryan Nation and KKK alliance.
__________________
I'm not crazy! All I Really Need to Know I learned by Watching The Wire
Star Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 9 2013, 06:51 PM   #47
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Alien Nation fans?

Deckerd wrote: View Post
I don't think people are that different wherever they are.
I think if you'd lived in South Africa in the '80s and Los Angeles in the '90s, you might have a greater appreciation for the differences in human behavior. I'll never understand people who believe human nature is some single, fixed thing. Human nature encompasses everything from Gandhi to Hitler.


I think there would be very strong resistance to integration of an alien species unless there was a clear benefit for humanity and even then it would be a big ask for most people.
And again, if you remembered Alien Nation at all, you would remember that there was very strong resistance from many quarters of the populace. The government had belatedly allowed the Newcomers to integrate, but a large part of the human population resisted it fiercely -- just as many white Americans resisted it (and, alas, still do in some quarters) when the government passed laws ending discrimination and segregation toward black Americans. Seriously, the whole series was about those racial tensions and the Newcomers' struggle against them.


A more likely scenario would be to put them in concentration camps and hope that someone else will deal with it. Either that or put them in self-governing reservations in the back end of nowhere.
Which is what was done initially. According to the original movie, the Newcomers were quarantined for three years before finally being allowed out into society.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 9 2013, 10:16 PM   #48
hbquikcomjamesl
Commander
 
hbquikcomjamesl's Avatar
 
Location: Orange County, CA
Re: Alien Nation fans?

Hmm. I see that the series is also available on DVD, at a pretty decent price. And between the comments on this thread, and my own general preference for an "In the Heat of the Interstellar Night" premise, rather than a "Buddy Cop from Another Planet Helps Kill off Drug Lord from Another Planet" premise, I might just buy it. After all, I've got lots of far more obscure stuff in my DVD library, like A Christmas Without Snow (made-for-TV movie, probably intended mainly as a "chick-flick," staring John Houseman, Michael Learned, Ed Bogas, and a young James Cromwell, in a story about a church choir), and Footprints on the Moon: Apollo 11 (Barry Coe's documentary).
hbquikcomjamesl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 9 2013, 10:25 PM   #49
Deckerd
Fleet Arse
 
Deckerd's Avatar
 
Location: the Frozen Wastes
Re: Alien Nation fans?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
I don't think people are that different wherever they are.
I think if you'd lived in South Africa in the '80s and Los Angeles in the '90s, you might have a greater appreciation for the differences in human behavior. I'll never understand people who believe human nature is some single, fixed thing. Human nature encompasses everything from Gandhi to Hitler.
And I think you're over-complicating the way that humans behave. Humans are tribal at their most basic mode. Levels of sophistication are layered on top of this in modern civilizations. But the core default position of humans is family, social circle, tribal, tolerant of others all things being equal and if all things are not equal, defensive. Since human immigrants are resisted in most post-industrial western nations, the idea that aliens would be accepted into society (unless as I said there was a clear advantage in doing this) would just not happen.
__________________
They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance.
Deckerd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 9 2013, 10:56 PM   #50
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Alien Nation fans?

^Again, you're arguing against a completely false premise. The aliens in AN were not completely accepted into society, not by a long shot. They'd just recently been let out of internment and were beginning a long, turbulent process of integration, meeting violent and genocidal opposition. The whole series was an allegory for racism. So I don't even know what it is you imagine you're criticizing, but it sure as hell isn't Alien Nation.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2013, 02:31 AM   #51
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: Alien Nation fans?

I get what Deckerd is saying. He doesn't believe realistically that the Newcomers would ever have been released from quarantine in the first place. Maybe, maybe not. The series never really explored the circumstances which led to the Newcomers' release. We got the occasion flashback to quarantine (including an episode in which we learn the U.S. government had plans to turn the aliens into assassins), but aside from offhand purist comments about the ACLU, we never found out how the Newcomers came to be released. The crux of the show, though, was in the tension the release of aliens -- who are stronger, smarter, and breed fast than humans -- caused the population of Los Angeles.
__________________
"Beep... beep!" --Captain Pike
Hober Mallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 10 2013, 03:23 AM   #52
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Alien Nation fans?

The United States is still living down the shame of centuries of slavery and of the internment of Japanese-Americans in WWII. So there's plenty of historical reason why many American citizens and politicians would object to the idea of the permanent internment of any population. Maybe today it's easier to believe that we'd tolerate such a violation of civil rights because we've allowed our regard for civil rights to become so badly eroded in the years after 9/11. But we're talking about the 1990s, when those principles had not yet been undermined to the same extent.

Besides, there may have been pressure from groups other than civil libertarians. Business leaders might've wanted the Newcomers freed from quarantine so that they could be exploited as cheap labor. Also, the government would surely have been interested in their technology. Those Newcomers (mostly Overseers) who had some insight into the technology or advanced knowledge of their enslavers may have offered that knowledge in exchange for being freed from quarantine, or the government and corporations may have needed them to be out of quarantine so they could be brought to labs and so forth to teach what they knew.

Plus there's the security concern. Someone else, some more powerful alien race, enslaved the Tenctonese. How do we know they won't find and enslave us? It would've been in our own best interest to get on the Newcomers' good side and gain their cooperation in telling us all they knew about their enslavers.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2013, 08:42 AM   #53
Deckerd
Fleet Arse
 
Deckerd's Avatar
 
Location: the Frozen Wastes
Re: Alien Nation fans?

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Again, you're arguing against a completely false premise. The aliens in AN were not completely accepted into society, not by a long shot. They'd just recently been let out of internment and were beginning a long, turbulent process of integration, meeting violent and genocidal opposition. The whole series was an allegory for racism. So I don't even know what it is you imagine you're criticizing, but it sure as hell isn't Alien Nation.
I'm criticizing the idea that human civilizations would carry out any comparable integration. It would be mayhem beyond what any sci fi show could depict. If it were a small group who were definitely not at a physical advantage to humans, (intellectual advantage is neither here nor there in the short term and can only be beneficial to the human race in the long term) then I think there may be a glimmer of hope. I can't recall whether the aliens in AN were spread across the planet or all concentrated in one city but either way it's an unrealistic prospect on just about any level you care to consider. As we've all been saying; the way we treat any big influx of our own kind to an established area is appalling enough.
__________________
They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance.
Deckerd is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2013, 08:55 AM   #54
Harvey
Admiral
 
Harvey's Avatar
 
Re: Alien Nation fans?

As far as we saw, the newcomers were mostly in the Los Angeles area. Given that there were about 250,000 of them at contact, and that quarantine ended shortly before the beginning of the series, it seems like they mostly lived in LA.
__________________
"This begs explanation." - de Forest Research on Star Trek

My blog: Star Trek Fact Check.
Harvey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12 2013, 02:31 PM   #55
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Alien Nation fans?

Harvey wrote: View Post
As far as we saw, the newcomers were mostly in the Los Angeles area. Given that there were about 250,000 of them at contact, and that quarantine ended shortly before the beginning of the series, it seems like they mostly lived in LA.
That's right. One of the Pocket tie-in novels, Extreme Prejudice by L.A. Graf, had Matt and George travel to Pittsburgh and have to deal with the different kind of prejudices and problems a Newcomer would face in a city where most people had never met one before.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 13 2013, 10:10 PM   #56
SiddFinch1
Captain
 
SiddFinch1's Avatar
 
Location: State of Mind
Re: Alien Nation fans?

Always liked the show.
Haven't seen it in years.

I always wondered what Tv/movies would have developed in the AN world...talk about a reboot of Trek....would they have had an episode of TNG or maybe ST5 would have involved a displaced tenctonese starfleet officer who seeks help restoring the proper timelines where the Tenctonese landed on Earth in 1988 after purists changed it..no one would know him or have heard of the tenctonese..maybe a Spock mind Meld convinces them....of course tng may have been cancelled if aliens landed in 1988...
this could even move the eugenics wars to 2020's in human response to the superiorphysical and mental nature of tenctonese.......Babylon 5 would.be different too...tenctonese as a vorlon experiment to crossbreed Narns and centauri?
__________________
Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans: John Lennon

Last edited by SiddFinch1; July 13 2013 at 10:20 PM.
SiddFinch1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 14 2013, 03:14 AM   #57
Star Wolf
Rear Admiral
 
Star Wolf's Avatar
 
Location: ciudad de Los Angeles
Re: Alien Nation fans?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Star Wolf wrote: View Post
Mike Farley wrote: View Post
What exactly was the relationship between the original movie and the series? Was it like Stargate, where the series was a more or less straight in-continuity continuatio of the movie? Or was it more like, say, MASH where the movie was more of a springboard for characters and ideas, but definitely not in continuity with the series?
As I recall it was a mild reboot with Francisco family members changing their names and Detective Sikes changing from Skyes.

But early on in the TV series other concepts were introduced like the humans wearing hats to protect themselves from the environmental damage. I think they introduced Francisco as the new, maybe first detective and partner on TV but its been years
I'd argue there's very little relationship between the original movie and the TV series continuity. The year was changed from 1991 to 1995 (although the later TV movies based on the series pushed the year forward even more), there's never any mention of George ever being named Sam Francisco, and even though there's a flashback to movie events, it happens in the context of Matt telling George how his old partner died. In the movie, George is an active part of the events, so he wouldn't need Matt to explain things. In the movie, the aliens who've enslaved the Newcomers used a drug to keep them in line; in the series, a gas was used that made them submissive.

As I recall, the first Alien Nation novel, "Day of Descent," did a pretty good job of stitching together the disparate elements of the film and the series.
Upon further review the series picks up one month after the events of the movie with Detective Sikes/Sykes visiting the grave of his partner
__________________
I'm not crazy! All I Really Need to Know I learned by Watching The Wire
Star Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 14 2013, 04:03 AM   #58
Rķu rķu, chķu
Fleet Admiral
 
Rķu rķu, chķu's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View Rķu rķu, chķu's Twitter Profile
Re: Alien Nation fans?

So a modified version of the AN film's events still happened in the series continuity? Like the Stargate film, which (again, modified) also happened in the SG-1 version of that universe?
__________________
"A hot dog at the ballpark is better than a steak at the Ritz." - Humphrey Bogart
Rķu rķu, chķu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 14 2013, 04:15 AM   #59
Tosk
Rear Admiral
 
Tosk's Avatar
 
Location: On the run.
Re: Alien Nation fans?

^Yes. Matt and George go on to find out that Matt's that old partner (from the film) was actually/also murdered by a cop. (It's a pretty stupid add-on to the film's narrative in my opinion, but that's neither here nor there. ) The film events "mostly" happened.
Tosk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 14 2013, 04:32 AM   #60
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Alien Nation fans?

That's what most TV series based on movies do. They continue on from the basic storyline of the film, but tweak the details as needed. The '80s Starman TV series followed up on the events of the movie, but retconned those events to have happened in the '70s rather than the '80s so that the title character could have a teenage son in the present day. Men in Black: The Series followed up on continuity and character threads from the movie, but ignored K's retirement at the end, and presented L as a more experienced agent (though not a field agent) than J. And so on.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 11/16/14 including annotations for "The Caress of a Butterfly's Wing" and overview for DTI: The Collectors

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:55 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.