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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old July 9 2013, 07:23 AM   #316
OneBuckFilms
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Also, for bonus points, why does David Marcus complain that "scientists have always been pawns to the military", if there is no military to which he perceives himself a proverbial pawn?
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Old July 9 2013, 10:55 AM   #317
Belz...
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Security camera shows a person pull something out of his pocket and a cop shoots him in the leg.

The victim says the object was a cell phone.
A witness says the object was a cell phone.
The cop says the object turned out to be a cell phone.
YOU freeze-frame the camera footage and say "It looks like a gun to me."

Who am I supposed to believe?
This is a complete misintepretation of my point and you know it. You constructed this example specifically to make my argument look weak, although that wasn't it at all. In short, you have just demolished a strawman. Congratulations.

The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
Why do I get the feeling you didn't even read my last post? Anyway, you could not be more wrong. It doesn't matter how many people think it's going to happen. It only matters whether it is going to happen.
That's ridiculous, because NO ONE KNOWS what's going to happen. By your logic, everything anybody ever says about the future is a strawman.

Look, this isn't a strawman at all. Spock says one thing, the woman asks a question. Whether she's wrong, or more to the point the answer to her question is "no", doesn't matter. A strawman isn't that. But even if a strawman could be of that form, both the CNC, and Cartwright, and Chang, all seem to thing that it's a very real possibility, so it's not like she made a stupid version of anyone's argument, is it ?
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Old July 9 2013, 01:16 PM   #318
KGator
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
Japan's Self Defense Force IS A MILITARY ORGANIZATION!!!
Legally, it is not. Look it up.
You are actually incorrect. This may be YOUR interpretation of their constitution but if you delve a little deeper you will learn the truth isn't so black and white. The Japanese (the authority that actually matters here) have concluded that they have the legal authority to create and maintain a restricted size military force for the purpose of self-defense. Not only has the United States concurred with this assessment but we also helped organize, train and equip these self defense forces.

And you don't have to take my word for it but I have actually met members of the Japanese Military. I watched them train their Patriot Missile Battalions in New Mexico. Now while Crazy Eddie might contend that I was mistaken and this was simply a local Japanese police force augmenting their ability to intercept and apprehend feeing criminals at low to medium altitudes . . . I think the truth is actually much simpler.

The bottom line is that, your legal opinion notwithstanding, a Japanese military is not as illegal as you think.
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Old July 9 2013, 01:44 PM   #319
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
umm, no. The idea that armed civilians or police forces could blunt or repel any type of assault by combat regulars is sheer lunacy...
I agree. That doesn't mean they don't still DO it out of sheer desperation.

More to the point: if it WASN'T lunacy -- if the police departments of particular country possessed weapons technology powerful enough to neutralize any offensive system possessed by anyone else's military at the touch of a button -- then the police ALONE would be more than sufficient for national defense. A separate entity specializing in defense would be totally unnecessary.
If your police department was tasked with national defense they would, by definition, be a military. This is why we have clearly established why Starfleet is a military - they provide national defense (or the interstellar equivalent of it).

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
this isn't the Civil War. clearly you're not familiar with the lethality of modern militaries.
Clearly I AM, and my expectations are that said lethality is likely to increase precipitously as technology grows, and would only accelerate in a future dominated by the kinds of enemies the Federation faces. OTOH, Starfleet clearly lacks this level of lethality or clarity of purpose: Starfleet is a civilized bunch, and war is an uncivilized business..
So you believe the American military is comprised of a bunch of warmongering, violent, sociopathic killers and thus your fictional Starfleet would NEVER stoop to the level to resemble such a bunch of bloodthirsty savages? That's "far too uncivilized . . . and could you pass the grey poupon?"

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
My conclusion, therefore, is that prevailing technological and political conditions have made fighting IN SPACE to be a relatively pushbutton affair that requires more science and engineering knowhow than actual combat prowess (hence Riker and Picard's attitudes in "Peak Performance" and, for that matter, the incredibly bizarre setup of the war game itself). The situation is obviously quite different on the ground, but as far as SPACE is concerned, Starfleet fits that role effectively enough that the Federation has not (yet) seen the need to create a branch of the military to operate in space.
I'm not sure if you have been keeping up with modern robotic advancements, air combat and military drones but warfare on earth is ALREADY becoming kind of a push button affair. Yet whoever pushes those buttons will be a member of the military rather than the janitor on duty or the nearest secretary. For the Federation, Starfleet (the military) pushes those buttons. Whoever pushes those buttons is the military. If you have seen evidence that someone jumps in front of Worf to fire phasers or that Picard receives all his instructions to open fire from a separate military officer on board . . . please share that with the rest of us.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
in other words, no matter how many times you've watched Red Dawn you need to leave the fighting to the professionals.
I'm sure the Palestinians and the Syrian rebels will be delighted to hear that they their amateur volunteers have no need to participate in their respective wars.


Clearly you are not able to recognize the distinction between a "Civil War" and a war between opposing powers. In a civil war the existing government is either threatened with losing complete or partial control of the state. The factions involved are internal in nature. Its one thing for Syrian civilians to take up arms against their OWN military (or portions of the military fighting against other elements of the same military establishment) as opposed to actively taking up arms and engaging in combat to repel an incursion of the Israeli Army. Historically the Palestinians have had very little success in direct confrontation with Israeli forces and thus prefer to utilize more terrorist and guerilla tactics. It almost seems as if you draw your military analagies back to the revolutionary war where local militias were simply comprised of local citizens who brought their guns with them to battle.

But this is interesting. So earlier when I was using an example of the LAPD trying to defend against an invasion of the city you naturally inferred that they were being attacked by San Diego.

My bad, I should have clarified that for you. I was discussing warfare between two distinct and opposing military forces rather than civil disobedience or an escalated version of clan or gang warfare within the same state.
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Old July 9 2013, 01:51 PM   #320
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Starfleet was seen doing all of this and more in the 22nd century where it was unquestionably a non-military organization. That they continue to be a non-military organization 200 years later is therefore unsurprising.
What you continuously choose to ignore or refuse to comprehend is that no matter what other missions starfleet undertakes, if they actively engage in warfare and matters of national defense on behalf of the Federation they UNQUESTIONABLY are military.

Your refusal to accept the current definition of the word "military" doesn't make your position any more tenable.
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Old July 9 2013, 05:11 PM   #321
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
So with all of the things I mentioned, name one, just ONE organization that routinely does ALL of them, that is NOT military.
I have, in fact, already named three such organizations:

The Japanese Self Defense Force
The Chinese Coast Guard (as an example of MANY non-military coast guards)
Earth Starfleet

Second challenge: If Starfleet isn't a form of military organization, please define for me the actual 23rd/24th century military organization.
Assuming they even have one, it would be filled by several organizations that I have, again, already mentioned, such as (but not limited to)
The Federation Naval Patrol.
The Andorian Royal Guard
The Military Assault Command Organization.

Who, since Starfleet is not the primary military force, provides peacekeeping missions for member worlds?
Starfleet IS a peacekeeping force. It is also not a military organization.

Actually, SHOW me. DEMONSTRATE and PROVE that Starfleet does not provide military functions as a matter of fact.
I never said that didn't. In fact, I pretty explicitly said that DID provide military functions even at a time when their organizations was unquestionably non-military in nature.
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Old July 9 2013, 05:16 PM   #322
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

KGator wrote: View Post
The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
Japan's Self Defense Force IS A MILITARY ORGANIZATION!!!
Legally, it is not. Look it up.
You are actually incorrect. This may be YOUR interpretation of their constitution
Significantly, it is also THEIR interpretation of their constitution.

And you don't have to take my word for it but I have actually met members of the Japanese Military...
So did I when we were stationed in Yokosuka. One thing that became clear in a short amount of time was that
1) Japanese people really DO NOT like the concept of a standing military and
2) They feel they do not NEED a military as long as the United States is hanging around.

The SDF is a de facto military by American/English standards of the terms; the Japanese terminology referring to it and its members considers them to be civil servants and employees of the government and they explicitly avoid talking about the SDF in any terms that would be applicable to a military.

The bottom line is that, your legal opinion notwithstanding, a Japanese military is not as illegal as you think.
A MILITARY is illegal. A self defense force is not.
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Old July 9 2013, 05:19 PM   #323
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

KGator wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Starfleet was seen doing all of this and more in the 22nd century where it was unquestionably a non-military organization. That they continue to be a non-military organization 200 years later is therefore unsurprising.
What you continuously choose to ignore or refuse to comprehend is that no matter what other missions starfleet undertakes, if they actively engage in warfare and matters of national defense on behalf of the Federation they UNQUESTIONABLY are military.
In addition to being factually incorrect (seeing how the United States has just spent the last ten years fighting two different wars against non-military combatants) it also remains the case that 22nd century Earth Starfleet was a non-military organization that acted in a military role.

Your refusal to accept the current definition of the word "military"
It's a definition you prefer. That does not make it current, or even accurate.
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Old July 9 2013, 05:19 PM   #324
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

I believe Trek referenced Japan with the Klingons. In ENT/TOS they had the Imperial Klingon Fleet, and in TNG/DS9 they have the Klingon Defence Force.
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Old July 9 2013, 05:57 PM   #325
KGator
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
Legally, it is not. Look it up.
You are actually incorrect. This may be YOUR interpretation of their constitution
Significantly, it is also THEIR interpretation of their constitution.

And you don't have to take my word for it but I have actually met members of the Japanese Military...
So did I when we were stationed in Yokosuka. One thing that became clear in a short amount of time was that
1) Japanese people really DO NOT like the concept of a standing military and
2) They feel they do not NEED a military as long as the United States is hanging around.

The SDF is a de facto military by American/English standards of the terms; the Japanese terminology referring to it and its members considers them to be civil servants and employees of the government and they explicitly avoid talking about the SDF in any terms that would be applicable to a military.

The bottom line is that, your legal opinion notwithstanding, a Japanese military is not as illegal as you think.
A MILITARY is illegal. A self defense force is not.
Did you just say that you have met members of the Japanese military and yet they don't exist? Hmmm . . . so even seeing isn't believing for you is it?

Japan has a military. The Self Defense Force is capable of national defense and thus meets the oft cited definition of a standing military or armed force. BAMMMM!!!!

I never thought you would go ahead and prove my argument for me but . . . thanks Ed. You're the best!!!

As the board is in English we have been using the English definition of military since . . . . you know . . . "military" is an english word. When you use the Japanese term for "military" its not really the word "military" now is it???

Please feel free to redirect the discussion of words in other languages that have no direct translation to english if you would like. Just let everyone know the standard you are using for future discussions.
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Old July 9 2013, 06:12 PM   #326
KGator
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
Your refusal to accept the current definition of the word "military"
It's a definition you prefer. That does not make it current, or even accurate.
In a previous post I gave you four definitions of the term military from 4 separate sources which you conveniently ignored.
Tell you what, Websters defines "military" as
Definition of MILITARY
1: military persons; especially : army officers
2: armed forces

Its common knowledge that Starfleet vessels are armed.

On top of that they use their weapons in combat against threats and on orders from the Federation.

Clearly they are an armed force under Federation control.
Hence they are the epitomy of the definition of a military for the Federation.

Game, point, match.

Making up your own definitions is not a valid method for continuing a discussion (neither is making comparisons that are either wrong or have no comparative value). Either you can find something to support your contention that everyone on this board (besides yourself obviously) seems to misuse and not understand the true meaning of the term "military" or this argument has just about run its course.
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Old July 9 2013, 06:13 PM   #327
Kruezerman
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Why is every argument on here devolve into 1 vs (at least) four?

Starfleet is military, there is little to no proof otherwise. Seriously, this debate is getting no where.
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Old July 9 2013, 06:18 PM   #328
KGator
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Kruezerman wrote: View Post
Why is every argument on here devolve into 1 vs (at least) four?

Starfleet is military, there is little to no proof otherwise. Seriously, this debate is getting no where.
Perhaps 1 vs 4 is the universally recognized equilibrium ratio for Star Trek arguments?

This wouldn't eliminate the opportunity of having a 2 vs 8 or 3 vs 12 type argument.
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Old July 9 2013, 06:37 PM   #329
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Kruezer's Law of TrekBBS: All debates on Trek will, at it's source, be based on a 1:4 ratio in regards to participants.

It just annoys me that people completely disregard proof from almost fifty years of television and film to further their own agenda. Jesus H. Christ Almighty.
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Old July 9 2013, 06:48 PM   #330
OneBuckFilms
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
So with all of the things I mentioned, name one, just ONE organization that routinely does ALL of them, that is NOT military.
I have, in fact, already named three such organizations:

The Japanese Self Defense Force
The Chinese Coast Guard (as an example of MANY non-military coast guards)
Earth Starfleet
The Japanese Defense Force is a military organization. Fact.
The Coast Guard is effectively an estention of border patrol and rescue. It is involved only in civilian law enforcement (drugs, etc.), not operations of general armed defense. So it does not meet the criteria.
The Chinese Coast Guard, like other coast guards, do not provide defense against invasion, or large-scale military attacks. Not do/can they engage in operations beyond partolling Japanese borders. They are not a mobile force the way the Army, Navy or Air Force are, and deal with civilian law enforcement and search/rescue operations at sea within Japanese waters. They do not meet the criteria for all the roles a military organisation would play.
I will not comment on Earth Starfleet, as that ground has been covered. It's inclusion is an assertion, not a valid analogous example.
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Second challenge: If Starfleet isn't a form of military organization, please define for me the actual 23rd/24th century military organization.
Assuming they even have one, it would be filled by several organizations that I have, again, already mentioned, such as (but not limited to)
The Federation Naval Patrol.
The Andorian Royal Guard
The Military Assault Command Organization.
MACO are clearly another military organisation, one that seems analogous to the SEALS. But their focus is narrow, not more general defense.
The Andorial Royal Guard is not under command of the Federation, but are a sovereign military power of a member planet. They do not meet the criteria.
The Federation Naval Patrol seems to be limited in scope, and I'm not sure I've ever seen them called upon by the Federation to defent against say, the Borg.

These organisations likely contribute on many occasions, but from the evidence I've seen, it is Starfleet that is called upon to perform major military functions.
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Who, since Starfleet is not the primary military force, provides peacekeeping missions for member worlds?
Starfleet IS a peacekeeping force. It is also not a military organization.
Asertion with no impirical supporting evidence.
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Actually, SHOW me. DEMONSTRATE and PROVE that Starfleet does not provide military functions as a matter of fact.
I never said that didn't. In fact, I pretty explicitly said that DID provide military functions even at a time when their organizations was unquestionably non-military in nature.
Then what is your cirteria? Define a military organisation. What traits/activities must an organisation have to be considered military in your eyes?

To my eyes, "unquestionably" is becoming a questionable proposition, considering that is can only really be applied to the 22nd Century with any credibility.
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