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Old July 9 2013, 12:05 AM   #316
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
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It isn't the root of all evil. But people who are smart enough are able to use it to justify anything to the people who follow them. Those people do truly believe and I don't think they're evil, just brainwashed. Most of the time the people preaching it are just as brainwashed, so it's basically a sad cycle of abuse.
Does brainwashed mean they are of unsound mind? If not, they are still responsible for their own actions. If you are willing to harm others for your beliefs (and it doesn't matter if you believe in a god, a football team or Captain Picard), you are evil. And if the Nuremberg Trials are of any worth, the excuse "I was just following orders" (and variations) doesn't count either.
They're doing evil, there aren't good people and evil people, just people. Only our actions can be.
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Old July 9 2013, 12:08 AM   #317
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

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I think the three of them have fundamentally failed to understand each other there tbh.

I don't think AP was declaring religion the root of all evil, just saying that it can be powerful enough to trick otherwise decent people into acting in predjudicial manners. Manners which without the influence of religion, they might think more critically about.
Bingo.

When I was a super-religious Christian fundamentalist, it's not like I went around cackling with glee at the hopes of bringing down some non-believers. For example, when it came to homosexuality, I didn't dislike gay people, but I felt that if Jesus thought it was wrong and bad, then it must have been a really bad choice to make (at the time I thought it was a choice), just as one would smoke or drink. I honestly thought I was doing the right thing by trying to get them to turn away from being gay. I didn't want them to go to hell. My intentions were very good; but my course of action was negative, and wrong. Religion can make a good, decent person do things that hurt others.
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Old July 9 2013, 12:17 AM   #318
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Well, eternal damnation is a pretty big deal.
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Old July 9 2013, 12:29 AM   #319
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

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Well, eternal damnation is a pretty big deal.
Yeah. If one believes in it, and is sincere, I understand the need to try and bring people into the safe zone. Not that a number of the fundamentalist Christians here want that. From them I get the need to prove how right they are, and how wrong you'll be when you find out just how much God hates your sin. I don't sense much honest sincerity from the faith anymore, and certainly not from the ID/Creationist crowd. Anyone who wants to sneak their teachings in under another cover, and then blatantly deny it, is willing to do whatever it takes out of pride, not out of any sincerity of love. They don't want honest faithful, they want head nodding believers. That's the totally wrong way to go about it.

Just to clarify, I won't include all Creationists in that umbrella, because not everyone will be that way, but few have ever given me cause to think otherwise.
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Old July 9 2013, 12:56 AM   #320
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

A lot of the problem with Creationism and it's spin-off ID is that they truly believe that it had to happen that way. That mankind came from two naked people in a garden who got tricked by a talking snake. That's where original sin comes from and requires Jesus to sacrifice himself. It's the foundation of their house of cards. Plus if you question it, you have to question the rest of it as well.

It's also the source of their bizarre attacks on Evolution because they're convinced that if one thing is wrong, the whole theory must be tossed out instead of looking into that one area. Usually these attacks are on areas that scientists figured out and tossed out anyway, like Piltdown man. No one teaches it except as an example of a hoax and how the scientific method is used to figure out what's real and what's not.
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Old July 9 2013, 01:04 AM   #321
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
A lot of the problem with Creationism and it's spin-off ID is that they truly believe that it had to happen that way. That mankind came from two naked people in a garden who got tricked by a talking snake. That's where original sin comes from and requires Jesus to sacrifice himself. It's the foundation of their house of cards. Plus if you question it, you have to question the rest of it as well.

It's also the source of their bizarre attacks on Evolution because they're convinced that if one thing is wrong, the whole theory must be tossed out instead of looking into that one area. Usually these attacks are on areas that scientists figured out and tossed out anyway, like Piltdown man. No one teaches it except as an example of a hoax and how the scientific method is used to figure out what's real and what's not.
Good point. Genuine science corrects itself via the Scientific Method. Religious faith cannot change, only be reinterpreted, because to actually change the root of it means it was wrong, and a wrong religion is a false religion, and not one person who genuinely believes in their religion considers it false.
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Old July 9 2013, 09:39 AM   #322
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
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Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
It isn't the root of all evil. But people who are smart enough are able to use it to justify anything to the people who follow them. Those people do truly believe and I don't think they're evil, just brainwashed. Most of the time the people preaching it are just as brainwashed, so it's basically a sad cycle of abuse.
Does brainwashed mean they are of unsound mind? If not, they are still responsible for their own actions. If you are willing to harm others for your beliefs (and it doesn't matter if you believe in a god, a football team or Captain Picard), you are evil. And if the Nuremberg Trials are of any worth, the excuse "I was just following orders" (and variations) doesn't count either.
They're doing evil, there aren't good people and evil people, just people. Only our actions can be.
That's a fine distinction, but about as meaningful as "I didn't kill him, I only fired the gun. The bullet killed him." So good people are people who perform good actions, and bad people are people who perform bad actions.
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Old July 9 2013, 10:33 AM   #323
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Timelord_Victorious wrote: View Post
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That's not the point. The point is religion doesn't make you a bad person unless you were already ready to do bad things to begin with. It's just another reason that you use to justify your actions. If you're ready to kill someone "in the name of God", then you would be ready to kill someone without that religion as well.

You describe the outside point of view on that person. If someone kills infidels in the name of God, he is a hero and martyr for one group of people, and a monster for the other group of people. That doesn't affect the main point, that he's ready to kill someone for some reason.
But he wouldn't without a sound reason, like defending someone innocent for example.
Killing someone because an authority tells you so or else is not a good reason.
I didn't say anything about it being a good or bad reason. But it's a reason nonetheless.
You were the one who brought the absolutes good and bad into this.
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Old July 9 2013, 11:07 AM   #324
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Deckerd wrote: View Post
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Timelord_Victorious wrote: View Post

But he wouldn't without a sound reason, like defending someone innocent for example.
Killing someone because an authority tells you so or else is not a good reason.
I didn't say anything about it being a good or bad reason. But it's a reason nonetheless.
You were the one who brought the absolutes good and bad into this.
Do you even read what we write here?

I was talking about good and bad people/actions, and that religion is just one of many justifications used by people who do bad things.

Timelord was then talking about the quality of the justifications (sound/good or unsound/bad reason), which I wasn't talking about.
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Old July 9 2013, 11:10 AM   #325
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

And I'm saying your definition of bad is different from the next person's.
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Old July 9 2013, 11:12 AM   #326
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

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And I'm saying your definition of bad is different from the next person's.
Ok, fine. People who do stuff justify their actions. Religion is only one of many ways to justify your stuff. And people would still do the same stuff without religion.

Are we done talking besides the point?
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Old July 9 2013, 11:18 AM   #327
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post

Are we done talking besides the point?
This is what you said to start this.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
A person is inherently good or bad.
So if it's off point, show me where?
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Old July 9 2013, 11:21 AM   #328
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

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I'm sure that religion could be done in such a way that it didn't lead to abuse, but that isn't happening anytime soon. Really the closest would be if Christians actually did what Jesus told them to do and help the poor and love everyone like they love themselves. But they rather try to control the lives of everyone around them. They're really lucky it's a myth, I doubt a single one would actually make it to Heaven. Heaven would only be Jesus, Old Yeller and Mr. Rogers.
The problem is that everything can be abused. Religion is only one way to control the masses. The Nazis created their own form of religion, based on a false understanding of genetics, long-existing prejudice und general dissatisfaction in the population. For the "average" suicide bomber in the Middle East, faith is just the tip of the iceberg to make the last step. They blow themselves up because of hatred against their enemies, that's the root of their devotion. Muhammad Atta & Co were well educated people, and they probably didn't believe in the 72 virgins fairy tale one bit. They believed in their mission, and that's already enough.



Deckerd wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

Are we done talking besides the point?
This is what you said to start this.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
A person is inherently good or bad.
So if it's off point, show me where?
It's a simplified statement, meaning if someone is ready to kill for his God, he would also be ready to kill without religious influence; if someone takes care for elderly in the name of God, he would also take care of them without religious influence.

If you don't think actions like murder can be labeled bad and actions like taking care of others can be labeled good, well then so be it. It doesn't matter that these terms are subjective. It is - again - besides the point, which is that blaming religion for everything is wrong.


We are of course running in circles now, as I've been saying the same thing over and over again to you.

Last edited by JarodRussell; July 9 2013 at 11:50 AM.
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Old July 9 2013, 05:44 PM   #329
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
It isn't the root of all evil. But people who are smart enough are able to use it to justify anything to the people who follow them. Those people do truly believe and I don't think they're evil, just brainwashed. Most of the time the people preaching it are just as brainwashed, so it's basically a sad cycle of abuse.

I'm sure that religion could be done in such a way that it didn't lead to abuse, but that isn't happening anytime soon. Really the closest would be if Christians actually did what Jesus told them to do and help the poor and love everyone like they love themselves. But they rather try to control the lives of everyone around them. They're really lucky it's a myth, I doubt a single one would actually make it to Heaven. Heaven would only be Jesus, Old Yeller and Mr. Rogers.
Jesus also told people to stop sinning and turn from evil. He also told His followers to tell the Good News that everyone can be saved and to do so means turning from their sin. This was His main message. What you mentioned is only a part of what He said.
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Old July 9 2013, 06:38 PM   #330
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

how can i sin when i don't believe in the concept? going to hell isn't a threat that means anything to me.

i do good things because i want to, not out of some obligation to a mystical being.

even if i wanted to believe i couldn't because i my brain doesn't do 'faith'.
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