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Old July 8 2013, 06:44 PM   #301
Ryan8bit
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

I don't think it's so black and white anyways. There's no such thing as a person who is wholly good or wholly evil. The case is likely this: People who are mostly good can be swayed to be "bad" in the name of authority. That shouldn't be that difficult of a concept.
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Old July 8 2013, 08:49 PM   #302
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

RyanKCR wrote: View Post
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Deckerd wrote: View Post

That's rubbish. a) People are a lot more complicated than that and b) 'good' and 'bad' are subjective terms. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
That's not the point. The point is religion doesn't make you a bad person unless you were already ready to do bad things to begin with. It's just another reason that you use to justify your actions. If you're ready to kill someone "in the name of God", then you would be ready to kill someone without that religion as well.

You describe the outside point of view on that person. If someone kills infidels in the name of God, he is a hero and martyr for one group of people, and a monster for the other group of people. That doesn't affect the main point, that he's ready to kill someone for some reason.
That's it. That's the issue. Religion cannot make a good person do bad. It can be an excuse for an evil person to do evil. A more accurate reading of the statement should be:

With or without religion good people can still do good and bad people can still do bad. However, religion can be used as an excuse for a bad person to do bad, but it can also make a bad person do good.
Your world must be so simple.

Do you honestly believe that without the influence of religious belief that people wouldn't commit hate crimes and try to limit the rights of gay people? Or that people wouldn't allow their children to die because they think they can pray away the illness instead of taking them to a doctor? Or that religious extremists wouldn't fly planes into buildings because they thought they would get a reward in the afterlife.

Those people were going to do that anyway, religion is just an excuse?

Is religion your excuse for ignoring any development in science that doesn't agree with your ancient myths?
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Old July 8 2013, 10:25 PM   #303
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

RyanKCR wrote: View Post
Religion cannot make a good person do bad.
Actually, I'm glad you said that.

So I guess I was wrong in thinking that people like you were simply fooled into evil by their pigheaded adherence to a badly translated roll of parchment from the Bronze Age.

Turns out they are simply evil. Good to know.
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Old July 8 2013, 10:30 PM   #304
JarodRussell
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
RyanKCR wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
That's not the point. The point is religion doesn't make you a bad person unless you were already ready to do bad things to begin with. It's just another reason that you use to justify your actions. If you're ready to kill someone "in the name of God", then you would be ready to kill someone without that religion as well.

You describe the outside point of view on that person. If someone kills infidels in the name of God, he is a hero and martyr for one group of people, and a monster for the other group of people. That doesn't affect the main point, that he's ready to kill someone for some reason.
That's it. That's the issue. Religion cannot make a good person do bad. It can be an excuse for an evil person to do evil. A more accurate reading of the statement should be:

With or without religion good people can still do good and bad people can still do bad. However, religion can be used as an excuse for a bad person to do bad, but it can also make a bad person do good.
Your world must be so simple.

Do you honestly believe that without the influence of religious belief that people wouldn't commit hate crimes and try to limit the rights of gay people? Or that people wouldn't allow their children to die because they think they can pray away the illness instead of taking them to a doctor? Or that religious extremists wouldn't fly planes into buildings because they thought they would get a reward in the afterlife.

Those people were going to do that anyway, religion is just an excuse?
Do you really think all of that would not happen without religion? I know some atheists that hate gays. I also know atheists that don't go to the doctor because they think doctors know jack shit. And you really believe Osama bin Laden's own press that it was a religious crusade? Billshut. He hated the US with or without religion, and he would have found loyal henchmen without religion as well.

If you banned religion, people would simply find other justifications for their actions. Declaring religion the root of all evil is stupid. And I say that as an atheist.
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Old July 8 2013, 10:43 PM   #305
Tora Ziyal
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

^ JarodRussell, I agree. (Hmm, have I ever said that before? )
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Old July 8 2013, 10:46 PM   #306
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
^ JarodRussell, I agree. (Hmm, have I ever said that before? )
Mark that day in the calendar!
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Old July 8 2013, 10:47 PM   #307
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
^ JarodRussell, I agree. (Hmm, have I ever said that before? )
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Old July 8 2013, 10:52 PM   #308
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

I think the three of them have fundamentally failed to understand each other there tbh.

I don't think AP was declaring religion the root of all evil, just saying that it can be powerful enough to trick otherwise decent people into acting in predjudicial manners. Manners which without the influence of religion, they might think more critically about.
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Old July 8 2013, 11:21 PM   #309
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

It isn't the root of all evil. But people who are smart enough are able to use it to justify anything to the people who follow them. Those people do truly believe and I don't think they're evil, just brainwashed. Most of the time the people preaching it are just as brainwashed, so it's basically a sad cycle of abuse.

I'm sure that religion could be done in such a way that it didn't lead to abuse, but that isn't happening anytime soon. Really the closest would be if Christians actually did what Jesus told them to do and help the poor and love everyone like they love themselves. But they rather try to control the lives of everyone around them. They're really lucky it's a myth, I doubt a single one would actually make it to Heaven. Heaven would only be Jesus, Old Yeller and Mr. Rogers.
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Old July 8 2013, 11:23 PM   #310
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

I think you are being pessimisitic there, I live in a sane country, and all the religious people I know personally are quite lovely.
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Old July 8 2013, 11:31 PM   #311
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

that shouty, fundamentalist christianity is more of an american thing.
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Old July 8 2013, 11:38 PM   #312
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Pingfah wrote: View Post
I think you are being pessimisitic there, I live in a sane country, and all the religious people I know personally are quite lovely.
You live in a sane country. In America, a decent portion of the country thinks that Jesus wants them to control the lives of women, gays and everyone who doesn't believe their nonsense. They even think they have a right to be a bigot because of their religion and try to pass laws to protect religious based bigotry.

I'd be happy if they just kept to themselves and left everyone alone. I try to treat everyone with a level of respect and not bother them, it shouldn't be hard to return the favor. Their pal Jesus would agree with me.
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Old July 8 2013, 11:43 PM   #313
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

I tend to think the seeming proliferation of anti-gay activity in the USA is really just a reflection of what sudden and larger strides forward you are making in terms of equal rights and general acceptance into the mainstream.

You have majority support for marriage equality there, that's no small thing considering probably 90% of your country would identify as some sort of religion. You probably have pockets of extreme resistance, but I really don't think things are as bad as you are making out.
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Old July 8 2013, 11:54 PM   #314
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Awesome Possum wrote: View Post
It isn't the root of all evil. But people who are smart enough are able to use it to justify anything to the people who follow them. Those people do truly believe and I don't think they're evil, just brainwashed. Most of the time the people preaching it are just as brainwashed, so it's basically a sad cycle of abuse.
Does brainwashed mean they are of unsound mind? If not, they are still responsible for their own actions. If you are willing to harm others for your beliefs (and it doesn't matter if you believe in a god, a football team or Captain Picard), you are evil. And if the Nuremberg Trials are of any worth, the excuse "I was just following orders" (and variations) doesn't count either.
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Old July 9 2013, 12:04 AM   #315
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Declaring religion the root of all evil is stupid. And I say that as an atheist.
And I say this as an atheist, thank God nobody here had said as such.

And as an atheist I say, only God knows if you already knew that perfectly well or not.
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