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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old July 8 2013, 10:28 PM   #301
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

KGator wrote: View Post
the US Army can cook food, provide medical care, transport goods and people across the world, engage in large construction project, conduct law enforcement operations, provide maintenance for a wide variety of a équipement and structures, provide electrical power, etc. all things that can be done by other organizations. what does other organizations can't do however, is provide national defense.
Of course they can. All you'd have to do is order them to.

The fact that they would not SUCCEED in doing so -- and the fact that you'd have no way of dealing with them if/when they refuse to do so -- is the reason why militaries were created in the first place. If your country is under attack and you order the tax collectors to go out and fight the attackers, they'll simply be slaughtered; they have no guns, no combat training, no tanks, no planes. A military organization is created to serve that societal need, because war is a savage business and is best kept isolated from civilized life.

If a someone OTHER than the military can serve that need, that society will not have a military. At least insofar as space combat, the Federation appears to be such a society.

It's similar to the way modern societies created police forces to enforce the laws instead of leaving that in the hands of knights, mercenaries, armed noblemen or specialized local soldiers. It was a role societies no longer needed militaries to fill, so new entities were created to fill them (though not always; Gendarmaries still exist in France).
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Old July 8 2013, 10:35 PM   #302
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Are you maybe under-estimating the fact that "We are about to get invaded by a foreign country!" is a big fucking deal and generally an "all hands on deck!" sort of affair? You do know what an "invasion" is, right?.
given my enlisted service in the United States Army in both the infantry and air defense branches and my time as a commissioned officer in military intelligence, i do feel that I have workable understanding of what the term invasion means. but thanks for asking. all opinions are welcome.

Last edited by M'Sharak; July 9 2013 at 02:35 AM. Reason: quote attribution corrected
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Old July 8 2013, 11:48 PM   #303
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
So you think a ship is military if it is darker and some guys have to wear some weird silver belt/vest type thing on their uniform . . . I see.
I don't think you do.

This is the military.
This is not.


Military
Not Military

Spot the difference.
Erm, I see different lighting and circumstance.

If Starfleet is not a military organisation, please collectively explain the following anomalies:

- Starfleet is shown as the primary defensive and offensive combat provider for the Federation (the dominion war, battle of Wolf 359 etc.).
- Starfleet is shown engaging in both overt and covert operations of a military nature (small team hunting for Metagenic weapons, establishing a Blockade to prevent Romulan engagement in the Klingon Civil War, establishing a fleet at Wolf 359 to intercept the Borg invasion).
- Starfleet engages in naval anti-piracy operations (stolen vessels are apprehended for instance)
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Old July 8 2013, 11:51 PM   #304
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

[QUOTE=KGator;8351863]
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
Are you maybe under-estimating the fact that "We are about to get invaded by a foreign country!" is a big fucking deal and generally an "all hands on deck!" sort of affair? You do know what an "invasion" is, right?.
given my enlisted service in the United States Army in both the infantry and air defense branches and my time as a commissioned officer in military intelligence, i do feel that I have workable understanding of what the term invasion means.
Then you're perfectly aware as I am that the opposition of an invasion force would -- and in many cases DOES -- involve both the full force of the nation's regular military and anyone else who can carry a weapon, yes? Primarily because the need to oppose an immanent invasion far outstrips the need to distinguish between military forces and non-military police forces.

Overall, the designation of a nation's military is based on the need to define a formal fighting force. If there is no need for such a force, they won't designate one.
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Old July 8 2013, 11:53 PM   #305
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
So you think a ship is military if it is darker and some guys have to wear some weird silver belt/vest type thing on their uniform . . . I see.
I don't think you do.

This is the military.
This is not.


Military
Not Military

Spot the difference.
Erm, I see different lighting and circumstance.

If Starfleet is not a military organisation, please collectively explain the following anomalies:

- Starfleet is shown as the primary defensive and offensive combat provider for the Federation (the dominion war, battle of Wolf 359 etc.).
- Starfleet is shown engaging in both overt and covert operations of a military nature (small team hunting for Metagenic weapons, establishing a Blockade to prevent Romulan engagement in the Klingon Civil War, establishing a fleet at Wolf 359 to intercept the Borg invasion).
- Starfleet engages in naval anti-piracy operations (stolen vessels are apprehended for instance)
Starfleet was seen doing all of this and more in the 22nd century where it was unquestionably a non-military organization. That they continue to be a non-military organization 200 years later is therefore unsurprising.
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Old July 9 2013, 12:13 AM   #306
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

BillJ wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Never said it did. I've said that their relative lack of specialty in combat training reflects the fact that they are not a military organization. And even Riker called combat proficiency a "minor province" in a commander's duties, something which Star Trek has been remarkably consistent about.
That is also in the same episode as Picard's "we aren't the military". I wonder how many starship commanders thought combat proficiency was a "minor province" during all those battles on Deep Space Nine? You seem to hinge everything on Picard's statement, yet he's been wrong before.
Case in point in a deleted scene from Nemesis he said the HMS Beagle was unarmed when Darwin was on it, whereas a history museum I went to had an evolution exhibit which pointed out that before that voyage the ship's captain had to get canons made out of a different material than the ones that came with the ship (he apparently did this out of pocket) so they wouldn't mess with their instruments.
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Old July 9 2013, 12:16 AM   #307
KGator
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

[QUOTE=Crazy Eddie;8352337]
KGator wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post

given my enlisted service in the United States Army in both the infantry and air defense branches and my time as a commissioned officer in military intelligence, i do feel that I have workable understanding of what the term invasion means.
Then you're perfectly aware as I am that the opposition of an invasion force would -- and in many cases DOES -- involve both the full force of the nation's regular military and anyone else who can carry a weapon, yes? Primarily because the need to oppose an immanent invasion far outstrips the need to distinguish between military forces and non-military police forces.

Overall, the designation of a nation's military is based on the need to define a formal fighting force. If there is no need for such a force, they won't designate one.
umm, no. The idea that armed civilians or police forces could blunt or repel any type of assault by combat regulars is sheer lunacy and would only lead to a slaughter of such forces. you obviously have no idea of the kind of firepower that even a single infantry platoon possesses. the only chance a militia would have is to hunker down until combat operations had passed and use guerrilla tactics against softer rear echelon targets. but by then most cities would be occupied and police departments unarmed except for minimum firepower necessary to keep the peace.

the last thing you would want is civilians firing on the enemy leading to frontline operational units indiscriminately firing on unarmed civilians and evacuating refugees.

this isn't the Civil War. clearly you're not familiar with the lethality of modern militaries. you might as well send 5 year olds out there onto the battlefield strapped with claymores on their chests because your idea of total war is going to be a bloodbath.

in other words, no matter how many times you've watched Red Dawn you need to leave the fighting to the professionals. just like the Federation leaves it to Starfleet, their military.
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Old July 9 2013, 12:39 AM   #308
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I don't think you do.

This is the military.
This is not.


Military
Not Military

Spot the difference.
Erm, I see different lighting and circumstance.

If Starfleet is not a military organisation, please collectively explain the following anomalies:

- Starfleet is shown as the primary defensive and offensive combat provider for the Federation (the dominion war, battle of Wolf 359 etc.).
- Starfleet is shown engaging in both overt and covert operations of a military nature (small team hunting for Metagenic weapons, establishing a Blockade to prevent Romulan engagement in the Klingon Civil War, establishing a fleet at Wolf 359 to intercept the Borg invasion).
- Starfleet engages in naval anti-piracy operations (stolen vessels are apprehended for instance)
Starfleet was seen doing all of this and more in the 22nd century where it was unquestionably a non-military organization. That they continue to be a non-military organization 200 years later is therefore unsurprising.
That merely supports the evolution of Starfleet's role from a NASA-like organization to an organisation that in fact operates as a military.

Pre Federation, Starfleet essentially evolved to serve as Earth's military.

There is nothing explicit on screen that establishes that Starfleet did not engage in military activities, or function as a military in the 23rd Century.

In the 22nd Century, military organisations were things like the British navy (which is established to exist), and the MACOs (to provide marine support).

On the whole, I do not share your clarity on the overall non-military nature of Starfleet, only that it started out with a more NASA-like focus on exploration.

Again, please explain the anomalies I have pointed out. If Starfleet is not a military, why is it, as a non-military organisation, displaying all of the traits of one by the 23rd Century?

I see Starfleet as a NASA-meets-the-Navy type organisation.

Spock has spoken about certain things transcending even "discipline of the service" (TOS: Amok Time).

Starfleet very much is engaged in activities related to peacekeeping and war.

It's PRIMARY MISSION is exploration, but it also has a mission for defense.

That, in and of itself, irrespective of protestations to the contrary, establishes it as a military in form and function.

Because its focus is not the usual military mission (war), I can see the confusion.

Starfleet is both NASA and the Navy in role, so serves as both military and exploratory/scientific organisations.

RE: Scotty's line, he's seeing a purely clandestine military mission that goes against the greater ideals of Starfleet.

A mission of pure attack, without provocation, being ordered, rather than one aimed at defense or exploration.

Starfleet may not call itself a Military organisation, but it does, in fact, consistently serve as one, and thus is one.
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Old July 9 2013, 01:33 AM   #309
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

I have read of former military personnel joining police forces. I have read of police receiving training from active and inactive military personnel. I have read of police receiving military equipment that has been modified for civilian use. I think the line between the two is becoming blurry.
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Old July 9 2013, 02:11 AM   #310
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Because it's a non-military organization that is expected to fight the Borg. Duh.
Heads I win, tails you lose ?

It's more common than you think.
The point is that even the person whose arguments you're supposed to be strawmanning is entertaining your suggestion. In that case it isn't a strawman.

We have no evidence of the Xindi or the Suliban either, but I don't see you claiming they've both gone extinct.
I have made no claim either way about these, so you cannot use that as an argument in this debate.

The evidence could be interpreted many different ways, but Picard's statement cannot, and really, neither can Scott.
Witnesse testimony is actually more reliable than hard evidence to you ?

Not to the Japanese it isn't.
Reality trumps opinion.

The difference is their PURPOSE.
In other words your use of pictures as evidence was a red herring. I was wondering that the pictures were supposed to show, but it sure seems like the answer to that question is "nothing".

It was designed first and foremost to explore space and seek out new civilizations for peaceful contact.
You don't know that. All you have is another statement by Picard that might or might not be all-inclusive.

Either way, Decker is asking the question, not making a declaration.
That's one of the weakest arguments you've made yet. So if you say "do you deny that the Earth revolves around the sun ?" it may mean that I don't believe that it does ?

Then you're perfectly aware as I am that the opposition of an invasion force would -- and in many cases DOES -- involve both the full force of the nation's regular military and anyone else who can carry a weapon, yes?
Ah... no. Having civilians fighting alongside trained military personel would just get more people killed on your side.
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Old July 9 2013, 02:18 AM   #311
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

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umm, no. The idea that armed civilians or police forces could blunt or repel any type of assault by combat regulars is sheer lunacy...
I agree. That doesn't mean they don't still DO it out of sheer desperation.

More to the point: if it WASN'T lunacy -- if the police departments of particular country possessed weapons technology powerful enough to neutralize any offensive system possessed by anyone else's military at the touch of a button -- then the police ALONE would be more than sufficient for national defense. A separate entity specializing in defense would be totally unnecessary.

this isn't the Civil War. clearly you're not familiar with the lethality of modern militaries.
Clearly I AM, and my expectations are that said lethality is likely to increase precipitously as technology grows, and would only accelerate in a future dominated by the kinds of enemies the Federation faces. OTOH, Starfleet clearly lacks this level of lethality or clarity of purpose: Starfleet is a civilized bunch, and war is an uncivilized business.

My conclusion, therefore, is that prevailing technological and political conditions have made fighting IN SPACE to be a relatively pushbutton affair that requires more science and engineering knowhow than actual combat prowess (hence Riker and Picard's attitudes in "Peak Performance" and, for that matter, the incredibly bizarre setup of the war game itself). The situation is obviously quite different on the ground, but as far as SPACE is concerned, Starfleet fits that role effectively enough that the Federation has not (yet) seen the need to create a branch of the military to operate in space.

in other words, no matter how many times you've watched Red Dawn you need to leave the fighting to the professionals.
I'm sure the Palestinians and the Syrian rebels will be delighted to hear that they their amateur volunteers have no need to participate in their respective wars.
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Old July 9 2013, 02:32 AM   #312
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
That merely supports the evolution of Starfleet's role from a NASA-like organization to...
To WHAT? The organization did the same things in its NASA-like role that it did 200 years later. If their ROLE never actually changed, what does that tell you about their status?

There is nothing explicit on screen that establishes that Starfleet did not engage in military activities, or function as a military in the 23rd Century.
Right. They did the same thing in the 22nd century, even though they were clearly not a military at the time.

On the whole, I do not share your clarity on the overall non-military nature of Starfleet, only that it started out with a more NASA-like focus on exploration.
It ALWAYS had a NASA-like focus on exploration. And it was ALWAYS expected to defend itself and Earth's interests against alien aggression when necessary. NX-01's very first mission turned out to be a combat mission against a violent and aggressive terrorist organization; their second mission was an attempt to make first contact that turned into a fight with pirates.

And yet, even as late as Season 3, we are hearing clear and unambiguous terms that Starfleet officers are not part of the military. If after the battles with Duras, the Xindi Crisis, the fights with the Suliban and the Tholians and god knows who else Starfleet does not consider itself a military organization, it's probably because their charter is flexible enough to include this mission role without defining Starfleet as a military.

Again, please explain the anomalies I have pointed out. If Starfleet is not a military, why is it, as a non-military organisation, displaying all of the traits of one by the 23rd Century?
MANY non-military organizations display those traits, all for different reasons. You'd really have to ask Starfleet for their specific history, but I'd suspect it has something to do with their not wanting to revert back into shit like this.
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Old July 9 2013, 02:44 AM   #313
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Belz... wrote: View Post
Witnesse testimony is actually more reliable than hard evidence to you ?
Security camera shows a person pull something out of his pocket and a cop shoots him in the leg.

The victim says the object was a cell phone.
A witness says the object was a cell phone.
The cop says the object turned out to be a cell phone.
YOU freeze-frame the camera footage and say "It looks like a gun to me."

Who am I supposed to believe?

In other words your use of pictures as evidence was a red herring. I was wondering that the pictures were supposed to show,
it shows that in many military and civilian combat units LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME and may in fact be the same PEOPLE under different circumstances.

The difference isn't their equipment or their role. The difference is their PURPOSE. Starfleet's purpose is peaceful exploration and scientific research; Alt-Starfleet's purpose in Yesterday's Enterprise is to defeat the enemy (namely, the Klingons). The shift in mission changes a lot more than the "mood lighting" (lol) on the bridge. It changes the ship's operating procedures, its mission roles, most aspects of its design and resource allocation, personnel priorities, etc. IOW the differences between Yesterday's Enterprise Alt Starfleet and Regular starfleet is that one is a military organization and the other is not; it is, to be sure, very similar to the difference between a squad of harbor police, and a squad of marines.

Ah... no. Having civilians fighting alongside trained military personel would just get more people killed on your side.
Usually, yes. That's one of the reasons why resistance movements tend to be so costly in the long run.
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Old July 9 2013, 03:33 AM   #314
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

KGator wrote: View Post
Japan's Self Defense Force IS A MILITARY ORGANIZATION!!!
Legally, it is not. Look it up.

Belz... wrote: View Post
it's not a strawman if everyone thinks it's going to happen
Why do I get the feeling you didn't even read my last post? Anyway, you could not be more wrong. It doesn't matter how many people think it's going to happen. It only matters whether it is going to happen. That you seem to overlook completely that Cartwright and Chang are in league with each other and are both trying to provoke continued hostilities with their dishonest arguments is almost beside the point. The same straw man was raised twice and you fell for it both times! Don't feel bad though, that's why people use them in the first place: because they can be effective in swaying people even though they are fallacious! (By the way, the very notion that "everyone" thought Starfleet was going to be put in mothballs is a straw man in itself.)

I'm finding this discussion less fun and less productive by the page, so I think I will just bow out of it, at least for the moment. If I have contributed to driving it further off topic, I apologize to the OP.
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Old July 9 2013, 07:20 AM   #315
OneBuckFilms
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
That merely supports the evolution of Starfleet's role from a NASA-like organization to...
To WHAT? The organization did the same things in its NASA-like role that it did 200 years later. If their ROLE never actually changed, what does that tell you about their status?

There is nothing explicit on screen that establishes that Starfleet did not engage in military activities, or function as a military in the 23rd Century.
Right. They did the same thing in the 22nd century, even though they were clearly not a military at the time.

On the whole, I do not share your clarity on the overall non-military nature of Starfleet, only that it started out with a more NASA-like focus on exploration.
It ALWAYS had a NASA-like focus on exploration. And it was ALWAYS expected to defend itself and Earth's interests against alien aggression when necessary. NX-01's very first mission turned out to be a combat mission against a violent and aggressive terrorist organization; their second mission was an attempt to make first contact that turned into a fight with pirates.

And yet, even as late as Season 3, we are hearing clear and unambiguous terms that Starfleet officers are not part of the military. If after the battles with Duras, the Xindi Crisis, the fights with the Suliban and the Tholians and god knows who else Starfleet does not consider itself a military organization, it's probably because their charter is flexible enough to include this mission role without defining Starfleet as a military.

Again, please explain the anomalies I have pointed out. If Starfleet is not a military, why is it, as a non-military organisation, displaying all of the traits of one by the 23rd Century?
MANY non-military organizations display those traits, all for different reasons. You'd really have to ask Starfleet for their specific history, but I'd suspect it has something to do with their not wanting to revert back into shit like this.
NASA is not involved with military operations (such as peacekeeping missions into warzones, or defending against invaders).

Clearly, Starfleet DOES do these things.

So with all of the things I mentioned, name one, just ONE organization that routinely does ALL of them, that is NOT military.

Second challenge: If Starfleet isn't a form of military organization, please define for me the actual 23rd/24th century military organization.

Who, if not Starfleet, is responsible for defense of the Federation as a whole?

Who, since Starfleet is not the primary military force, provides peacekeeping missions for member worlds?

Please, enlighten me.

Actually, SHOW me. DEMONSTRATE and PROVE that Starfleet does not provide military functions as a matter of fact.
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