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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old July 8 2013, 09:21 PM   #286
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Belz... wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
Also remember the Klingons asking Kirk if he's willing to give up starfleet. I guess everybody is enjoying the same strawman, right ?
As a matter of fact, they are.
It's hard to discuss anything with you if you can hold mutually-exclusive opinions simultaneously. It's a strawman, but people are actually considering that option, making it not a strawman, but then it is, somehow.
It's more common than you think.

For whom we have no evidence outside the 22nd century.
We have no evidence of the Xindi or the Suliban either, but I don't see you claiming they've both gone extinct.

Then that is the flaw in your argument: you are relying on eyewitnesses rather than hard evidence.
And I'm interpreting the evidence in the context of statements from multiple expert witnesses who are all high-ranking Starfleet officers. The evidence could be interpreted many different ways, but Picard's statement cannot, and really, neither can Scott.

This is a military.
This is not.
Based on what ? The colour of the lights above the bridge ? The fact that you have to step up to get to the command chair ?
Based on the fact that Picard refers to the Enterprise as a military vessel in his log entry. Twice.
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Old July 8 2013, 09:23 PM   #287
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

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Because it's a non-military organization that is expected to fight the Borg. Duh.
Except that non-military organizations aren't expected to fight on behalf of the State.
Except when they are (as in the case of the JSDF and various countries' coast guards).
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Old July 8 2013, 09:24 PM   #288
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

KGator wrote: View Post
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So you think a ship is military if it is darker and some guys have to wear some weird silver belt/vest type thing on their uniform . . . I see.
I don't think you do.

This is the military.
This is not.


Military
Not Military

Spot the difference.
Ummm . . . if your security officer is a Klingon you . . . aren't . . . military???

If there is only one chair in the center of the bridge???

Dresses and cleavage aren't allowed on military vessels (so no Deanna Troi!!!)???
Didn't click on the links, did ya?
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Old July 8 2013, 09:30 PM   #289
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Because it's a non-military organization that is expected to fight the Borg. Duh.
Except that non-military organizations aren't expected to fight on behalf of the State.
Except when they are (as in the case of the JSDF and various countries' coast guards).
Japan's Self Defense Force IS A MILITARY ORGANIZATION!!! Stop using them as an argument that they are not. Everyone acknowledges that. The constitution might say they don't but look close . . . THEY NOT ONLY HAVE ONE but the US wants them to expand it!!!



There ARE countries in the world without militaries. But when invaded they will pretty much just surrender. They are a lot like France except without any pretense of fighting (I'm joking of course). Japan isn't one of those. They will fight you. They are far from a toothless tiger.
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Old July 8 2013, 09:34 PM   #290
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I don't think you do.

This is the military.
This is not.


Military
Not Military

Spot the difference.
Ummm . . . if your security officer is a Klingon you . . . aren't . . . military???

If there is only one chair in the center of the bridge???

Dresses and cleavage aren't allowed on military vessels (so no Deanna Troi!!!)???
Didn't click on the links, did ya?
What was your point? Again with the clothing making the man . . . errrr . . . military?

Look we change uniforms in the US army all the time. It has no bearing on our combat effectiveness or role for national defense.

Starfleet is a military. Its is either the largest or only component of national defense shown in the Star Trek universe. Your denial of what is there in front of you does not change the fact. Calling the Enterprise an ice cream truck doesn't mean its not a starship no matter how much ice cream the ships replicators can make.

A rose by any other name . . . . .
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Old July 8 2013, 09:34 PM   #291
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

At the end of the day, I think the evidence shows that Starfleet is a military organization designed first-and-foremost to protect Federation interests.

The Doomsday Machine wrote:
DECKER: Our primary duty is to maintain life and safety of Federation planets. Do you deny that?
Others are free to decide whether or not they think of it as the military or an ice cream social with cool costumes. But the writers, overwhelmingly, have treated it as a military organization.
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Old July 8 2013, 09:40 PM   #292
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

KGator wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post

Except that non-military organizations aren't expected to fight on behalf of the State.
Except when they are (as in the case of the JSDF and various countries' coast guards).
Japan's Self Defense Force IS A MILITARY ORGANIZATION!!!
Not to the Japanese it isn't.

But again, you didn't click the links so the point kinda went over your head just now, didn't it? What's the difference between a SWAT Team and a SEAL Team? It's not their mission, it's not their equipment. It's not really even their operational authority.

The difference is their PURPOSE. Police departments were created to detain criminals and enforce the nations laws. Militaries were created to fight enemies and defend the homeland. They CAN AND DO swap roles from time to time, which is why we sometimes send the military to arrest criminals and why we sometimes send SWAT teams to deal with pirates and terrorists.

The difference between the Starfleet and Alt Starfleet is their purpose. In the main timeline, Starfleet is primarily an exploration agency. In "Yesterday's Enterprise" it's primarily a warfighting agency. That fundamental shift in mission parameter is the difference between a cop and a marine no matter how much their roles may overlap.

KGator wrote: View Post
What was your point? Again with the clothing making the man . . . errrr . . . military?
Quite the opposite in fact: two people with the same uniform, the same gear, the same weapons and the same mission can belong to two completely different types of organizations. It depends primarily on that organizations purpose, as determined by legal statute.

More importantly: a marine scout sniper who leaves the military and joins a SWAT team ceases to be a soldier and becomes a police officer, even if his basic job description remains unchanged.
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Old July 8 2013, 09:47 PM   #293
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

BillJ wrote: View Post
At the end of the day, I think the evidence shows that Starfleet is a military organization designed first-and-foremost to protect Federation interests.
But it wasn't. It was designed first and foremost to explore space and seek out new civilizations for peaceful contact.

The Doomsday Machine wrote:
DECKER: Our primary duty is to maintain life and safety of Federation planets. Do you deny that?
I had forgotten this in response to Spock's assertion: "Logically, our primary duty is to survive in order to warn Starfleet Command." Significantly, immediately after Decker says this, Spock stops talking to him altogether and orders Sulu to go back to the Constellation.

The answer to Decker's question may very well by "No."
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Old July 8 2013, 09:48 PM   #294
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Eddie, I think that you know Starfleet is a military organization but you enjoy the debate.

the US Border Patrol has military grade weapons but does not fight in US wars. it is not military.

Starfleet has military grade weapons. they fight in the Federation's Wars. in fact they seem to fight all the Federation's Wars. they are military.
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Old July 8 2013, 09:51 PM   #295
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post

The answer to Decker's question may very well by "No."
Bullshit. I don't believe for a second that you really believe that. Spock merely believed that they alone could not save Rigel.

The Doomsday Machine wrote:
SPOCK: I am aware of the Rigel system's population, Commodore, but we are only one ship. Our deflector shields are strained, our subspace transmitter is useless. Logically, our primary duty is to survive in order to warn Starfleet Command.
Can you name a single instance where a scientific mission took priority over a military mission? Your answer lies there...
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Old July 8 2013, 09:53 PM   #296
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

KGator wrote: View Post
Eddie, I think that you know Starfleet is a military organization but you enjoy the debate.
I think I know that Starfleet is NOT a military organization and the fact that the Federation hasn't converted it into one is odd, but understandable from an in-universe perspective. It's also not something I expected to still be an issue in Abrams trek -- which I initially believed WAS a military organization -- but Scotty had his say, and there we are.

the US Border Patrol has military grade weapons but does not fight in US wars. it is not military.
The next time the U.S. gets invaded by someone, I suggest you try to convince the border patrol that fighting America's enemies isn't actually their job.

Although that sort of brings up an interesting question: did the Federation actually DECLARE WAR on the Dominion?
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Old July 8 2013, 10:10 PM   #297
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

what are you talking about? finding the Mexican army isn't the job of US Border Patrol. oh my goodness you've really gone off the deep end haven't you? do you believe that if California was invaded that the LAPD would be digging foxholes and setting gun emplacements?

I'm beginning to think you don't have any real concept of what police vs military do. militaries fight wars on behalf of the sovereign. police departments do not. militaries defend countries from external attacks. police departments do not. military invade an Occupy foreign soil. police departments do not.

let me know when you start to see a trend here. now guess which one of those Starfleet does.

are you still confused why Starfleet is in fact a military organization? since they, you know, conduct military operations against foreign powers, occupy foreign territories, attack and destroy the resources of opposing powers, etc.

all those exclusively military type activities.
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Old July 8 2013, 10:15 PM   #298
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

BillJ wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post

The answer to Decker's question may very well by "No."
Bullshit. I don't believe for a second that you really believe that. Spock merely believed that they alone could not save Rigel.
Indeed. Either way, Decker is asking the question, not making a declaration. If Spock was in any mood to debate him to the point of accuracy, he would probably state that it was ONE of their main duties in addition to their duty to collect any information on possible natural or artificial hazards and pass that information on to their home ports.

In short, Decker's asking a loaded question, and Spock is brushing him off.

Can you name a single instance where a scientific mission took priority over a military mission?
Off the top of my head:
The Galileo Seven - Kirk delays his transport mission to explore the quasar and finally has to be overruled by the commissioner to get back on task.
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Old July 8 2013, 10:22 PM   #299
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

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what are you talking about? finding the Mexican army isn't the job of US Border Patrol.
I'm sure it isn't, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't get involved if a group of Mexican soldiers showed up at the border in a fighting mood.

do you believe that if California was invaded that the LAPD would be digging foxholes and setting gun emplacements?
Yes.

Are you maybe under-estimating the fact that "We are about to get invaded by a foreign country!" is a big fucking deal and generally an "all hands on deck!" sort of affair? You do know what an "invasion" is, right?

I'm beginning to think you don't have any real concept of what police vs military do. militaries fight wars on behalf of the sovereign. police departments do not...
Except when they do. And again is the basic premise of their founding purpose: Starfleet was created to explore space and handle emergencies. They classify war as just another emergency; only the Federation knows why.
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Old July 8 2013, 10:23 PM   #300
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

the US Army can cook food, provide medical care, transport goods and people across the world, engage in large construction project, conduct law enforcement operations, provide maintenance for a wide variety of a équipement and structures, provide electrical power, etc. all things that can be done by other organizations. what does other organizations can't do however, is provide national defense.

Starfleet provides national defense. no matter what else they do since they fight the wars, they are military.
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