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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old July 8 2013, 03:23 PM   #256
BillJ
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

KGator wrote: View Post
By definition a military is the armed forces of a sovereign entity. Since Starfleet fights in its battles and defends its citizens they are a military. What a state or government does with its military is entirely up to that entity. How Switzerland organizes and utilizes its military can be entirely different than the Russian military's purpose.
This.

If Starfleet isn't the Federation military, then who is?
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Old July 8 2013, 05:28 PM   #257
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Belz... wrote: View Post
Also remember the Klingons asking Kirk if he's willing to give up starfleet. I guess everybody is enjoying the same strawman, right ?
As a matter of fact, they are.

Because I also remember Valeris quoting Kirk's words at the end of that very same briefing: "Did you not wish Gorkon dead? 'Let them die,' you said. Did I misinterpret you?"

Cartwright's co-conspirators were listening in on that conversation, either a recording or in real time. Chang brought it up in the first place as a way of baiting Kirk into saying something undiplomatic. He nearly succeeded.

BillJ wrote: View Post
If Starfleet isn't the Federation military, then who is?
The MACOs.
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Old July 8 2013, 05:33 PM   #258
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post

BillJ wrote: View Post
If Starfleet isn't the Federation military, then who is?
The MACOs.
Care to show any type of proof that they are the Federation's military? A single instance in more than six-hundred episodes and twelve movies that they actually exist? The Siege of AR-558 would seem to indicate that they were folded into Starfleet at some point, since it is Starfleet that is fighting not only a space war but holding onto territory as well like an infantry would.
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Old July 8 2013, 06:37 PM   #259
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
Also remember the Klingons asking Kirk if he's willing to give up starfleet. I guess everybody is enjoying the same strawman, right ?
As a matter of fact, they are.

Because I also remember Valeris quoting Kirk's words at the end of that very same briefing: "Did you not wish Gorkon dead? 'Let them die,' you said. Did I misinterpret you?"

Cartwright's co-conspirators were listening in on that conversation, either a recording or in real time. Chang brought it up in the first place as a way of baiting Kirk into saying something undiplomatic. He nearly succeeded.

BillJ wrote: View Post
If Starfleet isn't the Federation military, then who is?
The MACOs.
Again, this is superfluous and doesn't change the overriding fact that Starfleet is an armed force that fights on behalf of the Federation making them military. Whether the Federation has one military element or one thousand as a part of its armed forces contingent is irrelevant.

The Army is a military entity that carries out the directives of the US Government. Its existence doesn't make the Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard or Marine Corps paramilitary organizations. They are ALL military forces.

Starfleet is an armed force of the Federation and by definition it makes them a military.

Military: Armed Forces (Miriam Webster)

Military
1. Armed forces: a country ruled by the military.
2. Members, especially officers, of an armed force.
(freedictionary.com)

Military: The armed services (esp the army) (World English Dictionary)

The military.
a. the military establishment of a nation; the armed forces.
b. military personnel, especially commissioned officers, taken collectively.
(Dictionary.com)

Starfleet fights on behalf of the Federation. That makes them military. The idea that there can be only one military arm is some fantasy that has somehow taken traction on this board. Starfleet is armed, dangerous and engages in space and ground combat on behalf of a chain of command that leads up to the President of the Federation.

It would seem hard to argue that Starfleet is a bunch of unarmed scientists who do not engage in combat on behalf of the UFP but apparently that's the belief some on this board have.
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Old July 8 2013, 06:41 PM   #260
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

KGator wrote: View Post
Starfleet fights on behalf of the Federation. That makes them military. The idea that there can be only one military arm is some fantasy that has somehow taken traction on this board. Starfleet is armed, dangerous and engages in space and ground combat.
My point was that you could make the argument that Stafleet wasn't the full-time military if there were other Federation military bodies. But without those bodies, Starfleet is the military seven days a week and three-hundred sixty five days a year.
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Old July 8 2013, 06:42 PM   #261
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

BillJ wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post

BillJ wrote: View Post
If Starfleet isn't the Federation military, then who is?
The MACOs.
Care to show any type of proof that they are the Federation's military? A single instance in more than six-hundred episodes and twelve movies that they actually exist?
Obviously they exist. We saw them in the 22nd century working in parallel with Starfleet. We don't see them in the 24th century -- at least, not that we know of -- but then we've never seen the Andorians either, and I doubt they've gone extinct.

Anyway, it's not all that hard to account for. The Dominion War would have had an EXTENSIVE ground theater on the worlds of contested systems (Chin'toka in particular) that we simply never saw because Starfleet ordinarily doesn't get involved in land action. That, probably, is where you'd be likely to find large groups of Andorians, Tellarites and Federation MACOs.

The Siege of AR-558 would seem to indicate that they were folded into Starfleet at some point
Doubtful, since the only reason those Starfleet officers were there is because they needed to keep that particular sensor array and nobody had shown up to relieve them yet. AR-558 was apparently something of a backwater where no other ground combat was taking place except for that one little sensor array.
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Old July 8 2013, 06:50 PM   #262
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

BillJ wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
Starfleet fights on behalf of the Federation. That makes them military. The idea that there can be only one military arm is some fantasy that has somehow taken traction on this board. Starfleet is armed, dangerous and engages in space and ground combat.
My point was that you could make the argument that Stafleet wasn't the full-time military if there were other Federation military bodies. But without those bodies, Starfleet is the military seven days a week and three-hundred sixty five days a year.
Oh, okay. If your argument is that Starfleet has many roles besides combat and there could (even if not confirmed) separate contingents that are solely predicated for combat (rather than exploration, diplomacy, police action, etc) then I agree.

Starfleet is military by it being an armed force of the Federation but clearly their charter is far more diverse than most of today's modern military organizations and perhaps only a small portion of their overall funding goes directly into weaponry, space defenses, combat training, etc.
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Old July 8 2013, 06:51 PM   #263
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

KGator wrote: View Post
Again, this is superfluous and doesn't change the overriding fact that Starfleet is an armed force that fights on behalf of the Federation making them military.
I know you're coming in late, but that's not always even true in the real world. The JSDF is legally classified as an "armed force" but in Japanese language, practice and law its personnel are technically civil servants employed by the prime minister. IOW, Japan considers itself to have no actual military; it merely has military equipment that happens to be run by a group of trained civilians.

And the Federation exists in a completely different world with a completely different legal (and technological) framework.

It would seem hard to argue that Starfleet is a bunch of unarmed scientists who do not engage in combat...
No, Starfleet is a bunch of ARMED scientists who engage in combat. Moreover, they're not particularly good at it.
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Old July 8 2013, 07:00 PM   #264
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

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AR-558 was apparently something of a backwater where no other ground combat was taking place except for that one little sensor array.
But if that sensor array was that vital to Federation interests, why didn't they send the actual military in to defend it?

I'm not trying to be a dick here, but if you watch the various 23rd and 24th century shows you would realize that Starfleet is the Federation's military. In the very first Star Trek pitch, Robert April has "Naval Officer" right above his name.

The Siege of AR-558 wrote:
VARGAS: Take it easy? I would love to take it easy. Get me out of this vole hole and I promise you for the rest of my life all I'll do is take it easy! According to Starfleet regulations we're suppose to be rotated off the front lines after ninety days. Ninety days! We've been stuck on this rock for five months, Captain. Take it easy.
Starfleet has combat regulations just like every other military.

The Siege of AR-558 wrote:
NOG: That soldier over there. You see his necklace? Those are Ketracel white tubes.
A soldier wearing a Starfleet comm badge.

The Siege of AR-558 wrote:
WORF: The USS Veracruz has entered orbit. They are beaming down troop replacements and an engineering crew.
No one that we see beamed down was wearing anything other than Starfleet uniforms.
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Old July 8 2013, 07:02 PM   #265
KGator
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
Again, this is superfluous and doesn't change the overriding fact that Starfleet is an armed force that fights on behalf of the Federation making them military.
I know you're coming in late, but that's not always even true in the real world. And the Federation exists in a completely different world with a completely different legal (and technological) framework.

It would seem hard to argue that Starfleet is a bunch of unarmed scientists who do not engage in combat...
No, Starfleet is a bunch of ARMED scientist who engage in combat. Moreover, they're not particularly good at it.
Actually, I was in this conversation early but then dropped out and came back late.

In World War 2 the US military was comprised of a lot of teachers, truck drivers, farmers, construction workers, etc, with basic military training who were quite destructive. The bottom line is whether a scientist/part-time soldier is shooting at you or a lifelong solder you are probably going to duck just the same. I'm sure a phaser fired from an armed scientists who knows Superstring theory hurts just as much as fired from a guy who only knows how to shoot the weapon he's holding.

Starfleet is probably closest in comparison to the Coast Guard where armed combat against foreign militaries is just a single component of their overall role. However they are by definition a military/armed force of the United States.

If a country fights its battles by arming all available milkmen and sending then on invasions of neighboring countries . . . . that's their military. And no matter how ineffective that strategy of national defense may be its probably no less efficient than Starfleet's overall combat record. ;-)
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Old July 8 2013, 07:09 PM   #266
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

KGator wrote: View Post
Starfleet is military by it being an armed force of the Federation but clearly their charter is far more diverse than most of today's modern military organizations and perhaps only a small portion of their overall funding goes directly into weaponry, space defenses, combat training, etc.
But that would only be possible if technology has rendered war such a trivial affair that just about anyone could successfully fight an entire war without really being trained to do so. That's obviously true in SPACE combat, which seems to be more of an engineering task than a strategic one. But that is OBVIOUSLY false in ground combat: the Klingons, the Romulans and the Jem'hadar are effectively Ugly Bags of Mostly Badass and not the kinds of people you'd expect to fight off with a platoon of lightly-armed geologists who took a self-defense course in their spare time.

There's a tendency in these discussions to assume "Starfleet isn't a military" is an indictment of military forces being too violent or too aggressive. That, to me, seems breathtakingly immature: military priorities and military readiness are fundamentally incompatible with the ideals of a civilized society, not because militaries are uncivilized, but because WAR is an uncivilized activity that is ill-suited for amateurs, generalists and especially idealists. That a Starfleet officer could even say with a straight face "Starfleet is not a military organization" and even have his first officer back him up isn't the reflection of a single person's inexplicable idealism; Starfleet is the kind of organization where a man like Picard could become the Captain of their most powerful starship.

That tells us quite a bit about how Starfleet in general views itself. It also tells us that we have never really seen the Federation's military: if Starfleet was their only defense against the Romulans or the Klingons, they would have been conquered centuries ago.
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Old July 8 2013, 07:16 PM   #267
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
Starfleet is military by it being an armed force of the Federation but clearly their charter is far more diverse than most of today's modern military organizations and perhaps only a small portion of their overall funding goes directly into weaponry, space defenses, combat training, etc.
But that would only be possible if technology has rendered war such a trivial affair that just about anyone could successfully fight an entire war without really being trained to do so. That's obviously true in SPACE combat, which seems to be more of an engineering task than a strategic one. But that is OBVIOUSLY false in ground combat: the Klingons, the Romulans and the Jem'hadar are effectively Ugly Bags of Mostly Badass and not the kinds of people you'd expect to fight off with a platoon of lightly-armed geologists who took a self-defense course in their spare time.

There's a tendency in these discussions to assume "Starfleet isn't a military" is an indictment of military forces being too violent or too aggressive. That, to me, seems breathtakingly immature: military priorities and military readiness are fundamentally incompatible with the ideals of a civilized society, not because militaries are uncivilized, but because WAR is an uncivilized activity that is ill-suited for amateurs, generalists and especially idealists. That a Starfleet officer could even say with a straight face "Starfleet is not a military organization" and even have his first officer back him up isn't the reflection of a single person's inexplicable idealism; Starfleet is the kind of organization where a man like Picard could become the Captain of their most powerful starship.

That tells us quite a bit about how Starfleet in general views itself. It also tells us that we have never really seen the Federation's military: if Starfleet was their only defense against the Romulans or the Klingons, they would have been conquered centuries ago.
The flaw in your argument is that you seem to feel that if there are other secret or randomly mentioned military organizations that somehow that would preclude Starfleet from being a military organization.

Sorry but Picard is wrong unless the definition of "military" evolves over the next several hundred years to something different than what it is now.

But as of now (2013) here on Earth, a military is an armed force of a state. Starfleet is shown countless times participating in armed combat against external foes/threats to the Federation. Thus they are a military.

Someone can always envision a way out and simply say that the word "military" in the 23rd century comes to mean an organization dedicated wholly for combat or that state defense is the majority of its overall mission. Thus Picard and Scotty were correct but you are wrong (since you didn't specify you were using a futuristic definition of "military").
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Old July 8 2013, 07:21 PM   #268
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

KGator wrote: View Post
In World War 2 the US military was comprised of a lot of teachers, truck drivers, farmers, construction workers, etc, with basic military training who were quite destructive. The bottom line is whether a scientist/part-time soldier is shooting at you or a lifelong solder you are probably going to duck just the same. I'm sure a phaser fired from an armed scientists who knows Superstring theory hurts just as much as fired from a guy who only knows how to shoot the weapon he's holding.
And yet, the guys who only know how to shoot the weapons they're holding are going to get their asses kicked by the guys who also spent five years learning parkour and jujitsu and training how to move and fight as a team over difficult terrain in low visibility, high-stress situations.

Starfleet is in its element in space (most of the time) and tends to use science and engineering to solve its conflicts. Their INFANTRY tactics, on the other hand, are laughable at best.

Starfleet is probably closest in comparison to the Coast Guard where armed combat against foreign militaries is just a single component of their overall role. However they are by definition a military/armed force of the United States.
And as has been said before, the coast guards of most nations are NOT military organizations and are legally classified as law enforcement agencies despite being fairly heavily armed.

If a country fights its battles by arming all available milkmen and sending then on invasions of neighboring countries . . . . that's their military.
I offer a counter-proposal: this society only provides weapons to its milkmen because the high demand for milk means the milkmen can be everywhere all the time and it is therefore highly efficient to give them police powers (e.g. if you rob a convenience store, the local milkmen will quickly locate and arrest your ass). Because the milk trucks are also very robust and highly mobile, they may also double as a defense service if and when the country is invaded by foreigners.

The milkmen do not, however, become a military organization unless they are legally classified as the exclusive agency authorized to conduct war against the nation's enemies. This is such, because "military" or "armed forces" is legal concept as much as a linguistic one and has different implications in different languages (particularly latin and African languages the equivalent word refers almost exclusively to land armies, as it used to in English until recently). Not being an officially-sanctioned armed force would make them a "paramilitary" or "militia" force by modern conventions, which I think fits Starfleet just fine.
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Old July 8 2013, 07:35 PM   #269
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

KGator wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
KGator wrote: View Post
Starfleet is military by it being an armed force of the Federation but clearly their charter is far more diverse than most of today's modern military organizations and perhaps only a small portion of their overall funding goes directly into weaponry, space defenses, combat training, etc.
But that would only be possible if technology has rendered war such a trivial affair that just about anyone could successfully fight an entire war without really being trained to do so. That's obviously true in SPACE combat, which seems to be more of an engineering task than a strategic one. But that is OBVIOUSLY false in ground combat: the Klingons, the Romulans and the Jem'hadar are effectively Ugly Bags of Mostly Badass and not the kinds of people you'd expect to fight off with a platoon of lightly-armed geologists who took a self-defense course in their spare time.

There's a tendency in these discussions to assume "Starfleet isn't a military" is an indictment of military forces being too violent or too aggressive. That, to me, seems breathtakingly immature: military priorities and military readiness are fundamentally incompatible with the ideals of a civilized society, not because militaries are uncivilized, but because WAR is an uncivilized activity that is ill-suited for amateurs, generalists and especially idealists. That a Starfleet officer could even say with a straight face "Starfleet is not a military organization" and even have his first officer back him up isn't the reflection of a single person's inexplicable idealism; Starfleet is the kind of organization where a man like Picard could become the Captain of their most powerful starship.

That tells us quite a bit about how Starfleet in general views itself. It also tells us that we have never really seen the Federation's military: if Starfleet was their only defense against the Romulans or the Klingons, they would have been conquered centuries ago.
The flaw in your argument is that you seem to feel that if there are other secret or randomly mentioned military organizations that somehow that would preclude Starfleet from being a military organization.
Not at all. I believe Starfleet is not a military organization because they SAY they're not a military organization. That's simply not the kind of thing a member of a military could actually be heard saying without getting a Section 8.

Sorry but Picard is wrong unless the definition of "military" evolves over the next several hundred years to something different than what it is now.
It probably has, but even with the MODERN definition he could easily be correct. It partially depends on Starfleet's LEGAL status, but mostly on the fact that the organization's established purpose is exploration and scientific research.

But as of now (2013) here on Earth, a military is an armed force of a state.
Again, not necessarily. "Armed forces," and "Uniformed forces" can be military in nature, but armed police forces and law enforcement agencies aren't considered military organizations either despite their capacity to engage in defensive warfare.

Someone can always envision a way out and simply say that the word "military" in the 23rd century comes to mean an organization dedicated wholly for combat or that state defense is the majority of its overall mission....
Which would be the CONVENTIONAL definition of "military," especially in light of the fact that Picard is french.
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Old July 8 2013, 07:58 PM   #270
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Re: Scotty and his military comment

Kirk and Picard were both empowered to take the Federation to war...
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