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Old July 8 2013, 07:16 AM   #286
Timelord Victorious
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

A good religious person will generally do good things.
He may do so because his religion actually dictates the right moral course r simply because the religion has no opinion about the specific moral choice.
In the same situations a bad person will tend to do the bad thing with or without religion.

In other situations the same good person can be compelled to do bad things because his religion commands it. The good person would do the good thing, but the religious authority is a higher one than his own moral compass.

We are not talking about an either/or situation. People will make many choices throughout their life.
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Old July 8 2013, 07:23 AM   #287
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

A person is inherently good or bad. Religion is just one of many excuses for a person's actions.
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Old July 8 2013, 07:35 AM   #288
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
A person is inherently good or bad.
That's rubbish. a) People are a lot more complicated than that and b) 'good' and 'bad' are subjective terms. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
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Old July 8 2013, 09:03 AM   #289
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

RyanKCR wrote: View Post
Good grief man. Let us rephrase it again.

Regardless of religion, nice people will do things thinking they are doing good (which is accurate), and bad people will do things thinking they are doing evil (again, accurately).

But because of religion (actually, quasi-religious groupthink, to accept the previous amendment), nice people can be fooled into doing evil things thinking they were doing good things.

Is that any clearer?
You forgot in the first park that because of religion, good people will do good. And that is where the problem lies. You are saying that religion causes good people to do good then you are saying that religion causes good people to do bad. You can't have it both ways.
Actually: yes, you can. The quote is saying that religion can make good people do good things... the same things they'll do without it (be kind, be generous, be selfless). But religion can also make good people do evil things, things they wouldn't normally do, because they think they have to follow the letter of some ancient collection of myths or they will be damned to an eternity of torment.

Now, do you realize that instead of trying to understand what's written, you are clinging to the wording so you don't have to think about the meaning?

Kinda like what you do with your Bible.
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Old July 8 2013, 09:24 AM   #290
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
RyanKCR wrote: View Post
Good grief man. Let us rephrase it again.

Regardless of religion, nice people will do things thinking they are doing good (which is accurate), and bad people will do things thinking they are doing evil (again, accurately).

But because of religion (actually, quasi-religious groupthink, to accept the previous amendment), nice people can be fooled into doing evil things thinking they were doing good things.

Is that any clearer?
You forgot in the first park that because of religion, good people will do good. And that is where the problem lies. You are saying that religion causes good people to do good then you are saying that religion causes good people to do bad. You can't have it both ways.
Actually: yes, you can. The quote is saying that religion can make good people do good things... the same things they'll do without it (be kind, be generous, be selfless). But religion can also make good people do evil things, things they wouldn't normally do, because they think they have to follow the letter of some ancient collection of myths or they will be damned to an eternity of torment.

Now, do you realize that instead of trying to understand what's written, you are clinging to the wording so you don't have to think about the meaning?

Kinda like what you do with your Bible.
Like the Salem witch trials. All in the name of God. Ironically, those who confessed to being witches were not executed. http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/project...alem/salem.htm
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Old July 8 2013, 09:44 AM   #291
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Religion is a specific type of ideology, and ideology is simple obedience as a substitute for reason and empathy. Ideology can arbitrarily lead people to do good things or it can arbitrarily lead people to do bad things-- but the problem is that it is arbitrary and not the result of reason and empathy.
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Old July 8 2013, 11:46 AM   #292
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

You forgot in the first park that because of religion, good people will do good. And that is where the problem lies. You are saying that religion causes good people to do good then you are saying that religion causes good people to do bad. You can't have it both ways.
You can...
Plenty of good, religious people helped the poor and their neighbours but treated coloured people like shit because they where the descendants of Cain, the colour of their skin was the Mark Of Cain!!!
Religion has been used to justify plenty of evil, abhorrent things and people went with it because "the holy book said so, according to the religious leader"...
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Old July 8 2013, 12:01 PM   #293
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

anyway everyone thats ever eaten meat on a friday is going to hell no matter how good a person they are. literalists have to believe this. it has as much weight in the bible as 'gays are going to hell' but they never talk about it, probably due to them loving a bit of meat in their mouths. mmm delicious symbolism.

i don't get why a person from 2000 years ago's opinion has any bearing on science that didn't exist then and they couldn't have comprehended. the bible is the morality of an ancient middle eastern tribe, taking it literally makes you an annoying relic.
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Old July 8 2013, 12:31 PM   #294
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

junxon wrote: View Post
anyway everyone thats ever eaten meat on a friday is going to hell no matter how good a person they are. literalists have to believe this. it has as much weight in the bible as 'gays are going to hell' but they never talk about it, probably due to them loving a bit of meat in their mouths. mmm delicious symbolism.

i don't get why a person from 2000 years ago's opinion has any bearing on science that didn't exist then and they couldn't have comprehended. the bible is the morality of an ancient middle eastern tribe, taking it literally makes you an annoying relic.
I've always felt 'A Piece of the Action' with its frequent references to 'The Book', which is what bible means, can be seen as a satire of how aliens might look at us placing so much of how to run a culture on the sayings and traditions of millenia long dead sheep headers and an itinerant carpenter.
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Old July 8 2013, 02:29 PM   #295
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Deckerd wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
A person is inherently good or bad.
That's rubbish. a) People are a lot more complicated than that and b) 'good' and 'bad' are subjective terms. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
That's not the point. The point is religion doesn't make you a bad person unless you were already ready to do bad things to begin with. It's just another reason that you use to justify your actions. If you're ready to kill someone "in the name of God", then you would be ready to kill someone without that religion as well.

You describe the outside point of view on that person. If someone kills infidels in the name of God, he is a hero and martyr for one group of people, and a monster for the other group of people. That doesn't affect the main point, that he's ready to kill someone for some reason.
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Old July 8 2013, 02:41 PM   #296
Timelord Victorious
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
A person is inherently good or bad.
That's rubbish. a) People are a lot more complicated than that and b) 'good' and 'bad' are subjective terms. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
That's not the point. The point is religion doesn't make you a bad person unless you were already ready to do bad things to begin with. It's just another reason that you use to justify your actions. If you're ready to kill someone "in the name of God", then you would be ready to kill someone without that religion as well.

You describe the outside point of view on that person. If someone kills infidels in the name of God, he is a hero and martyr for one group of people, and a monster for the other group of people. That doesn't affect the main point, that he's ready to kill someone for some reason.
But he wouldn't without a sound reason, like defending someone innocent for example.
Killing someone because an authority tells you so or else is not a good reason.
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Old July 8 2013, 02:47 PM   #297
JarodRussell
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Timelord_Victorious wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post

That's rubbish. a) People are a lot more complicated than that and b) 'good' and 'bad' are subjective terms. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
That's not the point. The point is religion doesn't make you a bad person unless you were already ready to do bad things to begin with. It's just another reason that you use to justify your actions. If you're ready to kill someone "in the name of God", then you would be ready to kill someone without that religion as well.

You describe the outside point of view on that person. If someone kills infidels in the name of God, he is a hero and martyr for one group of people, and a monster for the other group of people. That doesn't affect the main point, that he's ready to kill someone for some reason.
But he wouldn't without a sound reason, like defending someone innocent for example.
Killing someone because an authority tells you so or else is not a good reason.
I didn't say anything about it being a good or bad reason. But it's a reason nonetheless.
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Old July 8 2013, 03:41 PM   #298
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
A person is inherently good or bad.
That's rubbish. a) People are a lot more complicated than that and b) 'good' and 'bad' are subjective terms. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
That's not the point. The point is religion doesn't make you a bad person unless you were already ready to do bad things to begin with. It's just another reason that you use to justify your actions. If you're ready to kill someone "in the name of God", then you would be ready to kill someone without that religion as well.

You describe the outside point of view on that person. If someone kills infidels in the name of God, he is a hero and martyr for one group of people, and a monster for the other group of people. That doesn't affect the main point, that he's ready to kill someone for some reason.
That's it. That's the issue. Religion cannot make a good person do bad. It can be an excuse for an evil person to do evil. A more accurate reading of the statement should be:

With or without religion good people can still do good and bad people can still do bad. However, religion can be used as an excuse for a bad person to do bad, but it can also make a bad person do good.
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Old July 8 2013, 03:55 PM   #299
Timelord Victorious
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

RyanKCR wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post

That's rubbish. a) People are a lot more complicated than that and b) 'good' and 'bad' are subjective terms. One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.
That's not the point. The point is religion doesn't make you a bad person unless you were already ready to do bad things to begin with. It's just another reason that you use to justify your actions. If you're ready to kill someone "in the name of God", then you would be ready to kill someone without that religion as well.

You describe the outside point of view on that person. If someone kills infidels in the name of God, he is a hero and martyr for one group of people, and a monster for the other group of people. That doesn't affect the main point, that he's ready to kill someone for some reason.
That's it. That's the issue. Religion cannot make a good person do bad. It can be an excuse for an evil person to do evil. A more accurate reading of the statement should be:

With or without religion good people can still do good and bad people can still do bad. However, religion can be used as an excuse for a bad person to do bad, but it can also make a bad person do good.

No, you are saying that a good person can't do bad things influenced by his religion because justifying it by his religion makes the deed good in itself, which is not the case!
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Old July 8 2013, 05:03 PM   #300
JarodRussell
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Re: Why are Creationists so afraid of Evolution?

Timelord_Victorious wrote: View Post
RyanKCR wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
That's not the point. The point is religion doesn't make you a bad person unless you were already ready to do bad things to begin with. It's just another reason that you use to justify your actions. If you're ready to kill someone "in the name of God", then you would be ready to kill someone without that religion as well.

You describe the outside point of view on that person. If someone kills infidels in the name of God, he is a hero and martyr for one group of people, and a monster for the other group of people. That doesn't affect the main point, that he's ready to kill someone for some reason.
That's it. That's the issue. Religion cannot make a good person do bad. It can be an excuse for an evil person to do evil. A more accurate reading of the statement should be:

With or without religion good people can still do good and bad people can still do bad. However, religion can be used as an excuse for a bad person to do bad, but it can also make a bad person do good.

No, you are saying that a good person can't do bad things influenced by his religion because justifying it by his religion makes the deed good in itself, which is not the case!
No, that's not what he is saying.
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