RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,901
Posts: 5,387,389
Members: 24,717
Currently online: 610
Newest member: teriankhoka

TrekToday headlines

IDW Publishing November Trek Comic
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Pegg/Wright Trilogy In The Works
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Star Trek: The Compendium Rebate Details
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Gold Key Archives Volume 2
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Takei Documentary Wins Award
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Cumberbatch To Voice Khan
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Shaun And Ed On Phineas and Ferb
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

New Ships Coming From Official Starships Collection
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

Trek Stars Take On Ice Bucket Challenge
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

Retro Review: Profit and Lace
By: Michelle on Aug 16


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Future of Trek

Future of Trek Discussion of future Trek projects.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 6 2013, 05:34 AM   #31
Dukhat
Commodore
 
Dukhat's Avatar
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
Re: Why hasn't CBS or Paramount just taken over a fan series or two?

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
So long as no one profits from them, or deliberately rips off the fans, fan productions are tolerated because they are seen as many people's introduction to the franchise.
Well, that's not exactly correct.

Fan films are not allowed to make any money whatsoever, not just money that results in a profit. If it costs about $50,000.00 to make an episode, it might be construed that CBS becomes concerned only when we have earned $50,000.01--a one cent profit above our costs to produce it. That's not correct: we're not allowed to make any money whatsoever. Our top line must be zero, not just our bottom line.
So how did Renegades get away with having a Kickstarter? I realize that that isn't quite considered earning a profit if people are willing to send in money to fund it, but it's money nonetheless that isn't coming from the producers of the fan production, something I'd think CBS would frown upon.
__________________
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Dukhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 27 2013, 12:43 AM   #32
andriech
Commander
 
Location: New England
Send a message via AIM to andriech
Re: Why hasn't CBS or Paramount just taken over a fan series or two?

Ketrick wrote: View Post
Tom wrote: View Post
Ketrick wrote: View Post

True, however, if Renegades special effects are anything like Of Gods and Men's, I doubt it. Phase II and Continues have far better special effects than OGAM did.
As Doc Brown would say "Your not thinking fourth dimensionally!"

Ogam was shot in 2006, the effects were a little bit dodgy, but compare it to New Voyages in 2006, they are roughly on par with OGAM. So now 7 years later, Renegades will have amazing VFX, we have 3 separate companies working on it. 2 of those companies are also doing effects for P2 and Continues. Renegades shares a pretty close nit relationship with 'Continues', many on our crew are also doing some work with 'Continues' also.

BTW, like your screen name
I'm glad to hear Renegades will have better effects. Though, perhaps I should explain my main problem with the special effects on OGAM which was that it was clear that objects like the Enterprise B and other ships were computer-generated. They had a very inauthentic look. Contrariwise, while the special effects in the early episodes of The New Voyages/Phase II were a bit dodgy in some respects (the Enterprise doing loop-de-loops, the Doomsday Machine), for the most part everything looked like TOS.

Btw, other than my quibbles with the special effects and a few elements of the epilogue, I loved OGAM. The plot was very good, on the level of official Star Trek episodes and movies (actually above the level of some episodes like Spock's Brain). I wish Paramount or CBS had gone to the trouble to produce something as good as OGAM for the fortieth anniversary of Star Trek. Also, thanks for complimenting my screen name.
Yup, I sent our folks to Renegades via Walter Koenig! And, re: the early "loop-de-loops" that was the choice of Doug Drexler, who argued with James Cawley that the E would do that and thus executed that in his VFX. He is now working with Continues and has, apparently, changed his mind.
__________________
Founder Childhood Warriors. Producer/Promoter/Writer/Costume Designer/Event Coordinator/Fundraiser/website design (formerly for Retro Film Studios, CEC, IP, Mystic Seaport, Dickens Days).
andriech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 27 2013, 03:34 AM   #33
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Why hasn't CBS or Paramount just taken over a fan series or two?

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
So long as no one profits from them, or deliberately rips off the fans, fan productions are tolerated because they are seen as many people's introduction to the franchise.
Well, that's not exactly correct.

Fan films are not allowed to make any money whatsoever, not just money that results in a profit. If it costs about $50,000.00 to make an episode, it might be construed that CBS becomes concerned only when we have earned $50,000.01--a one cent profit above our costs to produce it. That's not correct: we're not allowed to make any money whatsoever. Our top line must be zero, not just our bottom line.
Huh? I fail to see how my post was not "correct"?

"So long as no one profits from them" = "not allowed to make any money whatsoever" = no profit.

A fan production that makes money above its expenses is making a profit. We have seen productions which will send a free copy of a fanfilm on CD-ROM if a signed cast photo is purchased online ("Of Gods and Men"). We have seen productions ask for donations in return for names being recorded on a plaque ("Starship Exeter"). We have only their word for it that no profit is being made.

As for rip-offs, I imagine a group canvassing donations for fanfilm after fanfilm, none of which ever get made, would have CBS looking at their escapades, just as fanzine editors of the 80s trying the same scam were monitored/warned.
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 27 2013, 04:03 AM   #34
andriech
Commander
 
Location: New England
Send a message via AIM to andriech
Re: Why hasn't CBS or Paramount just taken over a fan series or two?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
So long as no one profits from them, or deliberately rips off the fans, fan productions are tolerated because they are seen as many people's introduction to the franchise.
Well, that's not exactly correct.

Fan films are not allowed to make any money whatsoever, not just money that results in a profit. If it costs about $50,000.00 to make an episode, it might be construed that CBS becomes concerned only when we have earned $50,000.01--a one cent profit above our costs to produce it. That's not correct: we're not allowed to make any money whatsoever. Our top line must be zero, not just our bottom line.
Huh? I fail to see how my post was not "correct"?

"So long as no one profits from them" = "not allowed to make any money whatsoever" = no profit.

A fan production that makes money above its expenses is making a profit. We have seen productions which will send a free copy of a fanfilm on CD-ROM if a signed cast photo is purchased online ("Of Gods and Men"). We have seen productions ask for donations in return for names being recorded on a plaque ("Starship Exeter"). We have only their word for it that no profit is being made.

As for rip-offs, I imagine a group canvassing donations for fanfilm after fanfilm, none of which ever get made, would have CBS looking at their escapades, just as fanzine editors of the 80s trying the same scam were monitored/warned.
Actually, I think what Greg might have meant is fanfilms are not allowed to "take in" or "collect" any money "for production of the episodes" or "using the name "Star Trek" or any of it's characters"

As I have dealt repeatedly with the head of CBS legal on these things, I can speak to what they "require". A fanfilm cannot say "please donate to our production!" (not as far as CBS is concerned) It is far too hard to do just what you say - prove they are not making a profit. They CAN say "please donate to purchase plane tickets" or "please donate to pay the electric bill". These are specific items being paid for, not vague "production costs".

A fanfilm cannot sell anything licensed. That includes uniforms with insignias, anything with an insignia on it, anything with the word "Star Trek" on it, and they can't, say, take "donations for production" with the promise of putting a name on a plaque.

Now, those are CBS's rules. Whether or how they enforce them with any particular fanfilm is up to them, and we've seen that it is not consistent. (I believe Potempkin was told they couldn't sell anything period. Phase II was not allowed to give away T shirts as gifts that had the delta shield in the background.)

The casual observer can't make a judgement if something violates the rules either...because they don't have all the info. For instance, Phase II ran an Indiegogo campaign for a small amount - with CBS's permission, as we detailed to THEM what the exact costs we were paying were, though we didn't post it itemized on the Indiegogo page.

What CBS cares about is if a fanfilm is eclipsing the hubub and media attention to CBS, or is using stuff they paid for...like JJ's designs and universe. So fanfilms featured in articles in the New York Times are going to get a call far sooner than one that fans are complaining about. (In fact, they put a C&D on any Star Trek mag carrying articles on fanfilms several years ago.)
__________________
Founder Childhood Warriors. Producer/Promoter/Writer/Costume Designer/Event Coordinator/Fundraiser/website design (formerly for Retro Film Studios, CEC, IP, Mystic Seaport, Dickens Days).
andriech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 27 2013, 04:50 AM   #35
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Why hasn't CBS or Paramount just taken over a fan series or two?

andriech wrote: View Post
Actually, I think what Greg might have meant is fanfilms are not allowed to "take in" or "collect" any money "for production of the episodes" or "using the name "Star Trek" or any of it's characters"
And yet they do collect money. That was my point. On paper, no profit, but in reality many fanfilm productions are collecting donations, not just of time and skill, but cash. Money is changing hands.
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 27 2013, 09:47 PM   #36
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Why hasn't CBS or Paramount just taken over a fan series or two?

andriech wrote: View Post
As I have dealt repeatedly with the head of CBS legal on these things, I can speak to what they "require". A fanfilm cannot say "please donate to our production!" (not as far as CBS is concerned) It is far too hard to do just what you say - prove they are not making a profit. They CAN say "please donate to purchase plane tickets" or "please donate to pay the electric bill". These are specific items being paid for, not vague "production costs".
Isn't this exactly what Star Trek: Renegades did with their Kickstarter though?
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 27 2013, 10:29 PM   #37
marksound
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Planet Carcazed
Re: Why hasn't CBS or Paramount just taken over a fan series or two?

It seems to me that the best way to show CBS that a production company won't make a profit from their IP is to set up a non-profit organization, like a 501(c)3. It would have to comply with established regulations, and all moneys generated would be directed toward expenses. Any revenue not spent would be put back into the treasury for future expenditures.

I don't know the mechanics of it, but I've seen it work in other applications. An attorney would be able to work out the kinks.
marksound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 30 2013, 09:38 AM   #38
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Why hasn't CBS or Paramount just taken over a fan series or two?

Ketrick wrote: View Post
Wouldn't it be smart for CBS or Paramount to just make a deal with or take over Star Trek: Phase II and/or Star Trek Continues as a way to get Trek back on air in some media or other? They both are quality fan series and at least Phase II has a fan base that could be built on which could somewhat negate the economic difficulties a brand new Trek series would face.
They're nice fanfic for the die-hards, but the acting and most of the writing isn't up to the standard of contemporary television.

They'd make a fitting extra for Trekkies 3.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 3 2013, 12:40 AM   #39
Noname Given
Vice Admiral
 
Location: None Given
Re: Why hasn't CBS or Paramount just taken over a fan series or two?

Ketrick wrote: View Post
Wouldn't it be smart for CBS or Paramount to just make a deal with or take over Star Trek: Phase II and/or Star Trek Continues as a way to get Trek back on air in some media or other? They both are quality fan series and at least Phase II has a fan base that could be built on which could somewhat negate the economic difficulties a brand new Trek series would face.
Fan series get away with what they do because CBS technically turns a blind eye to their efforts. If a fan group got too much notoriety; CBS WOULD need to issue a 'Cease & Desist" order to protect their copyright on the IP. (If they do not, then it can be claimed in court that they no longer have IP rights to Star trek because they must show they are legally 'enforcing' and 'protecting' their claim, or they lose it and it slips into the public domain.)

Many people like to think they are 'afraid of angering the fanbase' - but that's not the case; as honestly 99% of the fanbase doesn't know about or really care about fan efforts.

As to why they don't just 'take over' - once they are publically involved; such a series would be governed by AFTRA and other entertainment union rules, with regard to who can work on such a show, pay scales, etc - so costs would rise to the level of a professional production.

fan series survive because as far as CBS is legally concerned, CBS is essentially claiming: "We have NO IDEA this is occurring with our Star Trek IP."
Noname Given is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 3 2013, 12:50 AM   #40
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Why hasn't CBS or Paramount just taken over a fan series or two?

Noname Given wrote: View Post
fan series survive because as far as CBS is legally concerned, CBS is essentially claiming: "We have NO IDEA this is occurring with our Star Trek IP."
Not quite.

Fan productions in the form of fanzines are well-acknowledged. Every media release for the first ten Trek movies had an early paragraph with Paramount estimating the number of "Star Trek"-related fanzines that abound.
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 4 2013, 06:18 AM   #41
chardman
Vice Admiral
 
chardman's Avatar
 
Location: The home of GenCon
View chardman's Twitter Profile
Re: Why hasn't CBS or Paramount just taken over a fan series or two?

Noname Given wrote: View Post
Fan series get away with what they do because CBS technically turns a blind eye to their efforts. If a fan group got too much notoriety; CBS WOULD need to issue a 'Cease & Desist" order to protect their copyright on the IP. (If they do not, then it can be claimed in court that they no longer have IP rights to Star trek because they must show they are legally 'enforcing' and 'protecting' their claim, or they lose it and it slips into the public domain.)
No. This is completely wrong. A copyright need not be defended to remain in force. Trademarks, on the other hand, require enforcement to remain in force, but copyright enforcement can be as inconsistent and willy-nilly as the copyright holder chooses, without endangering those rights.

Here's a good source about Copyright myths. (See section 5) LINK
__________________
If Ronald Reagan hadn't cut Mental Health funding to the bone, most of today's GOP & Tea Party candidates wouldn't be walking around loose.
chardman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:27 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.