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Old July 5 2013, 10:38 AM   #121
Belz...
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Anwar wrote: View Post
Because it showed up more, and was treated as something folks respected and were expected to follow whereas TOS' was more a background thing that the audience wasn't expected to pay much attention to.
I really do think it was made into a silly rule and dogma in TNG, whereas it should've been better written. Not interfering is one thing, but when you need to let them die, that's just stupid.
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Old July 5 2013, 02:36 PM   #122
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Jonas Grumby wrote: View Post
^ You make a good point. It's that superior, paternalistic attitude so often depicted in TNG that irks me.

In TOS, when Jim Kirk encountered Captain Christopher in "Tomorrow Is Yesterday," he didn't treat him like some kind of simpleton or child. He didn't feel any need to pat him on the head and "re-educate" him.
In the same episode, wasn't the USAF guard forced to wander the transporter room without explanation given to where he was? Was he eveb given a chair?
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Old July 5 2013, 03:24 PM   #123
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

He could have sat on the edge of the transporter platform if he wished to, I doubt Kyle would have prevented it, unless there was a transport in progress.

And he was offered something to eat. The guy was Air Police, standing around for long periods of time likely would not be a problem for him.

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Old July 5 2013, 05:11 PM   #124
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

^ Beat me to it, T'Girl!

I'll just add that, while I don't see the lack of a chair for the sergeant as any sign of disrespect or ill treatment, the fact is for all we know Kyle did offer him a chair, and possibly other amenities as well. There was just no need to actually show it.

From a storytelling point of view, the polite offer of food clearly and concisely established the courtesy with which the sergeant would be treated. A second scene of a crewman bringing him a chair would have only superfluously made the same point again.
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Old July 5 2013, 05:33 PM   #125
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Belz... wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Because it showed up more, and was treated as something folks respected and were expected to follow whereas TOS' was more a background thing that the audience wasn't expected to pay much attention to.
I really do think it was made into a silly rule and dogma in TNG, whereas it should've been better written. Not interfering is one thing, but when you need to let them die, that's just stupid.
In "Homeward"'s case, they just needed to go further and explain that it wasn't possible to evacuate the planet in time and that would set a precedent for such actions that would lead to an ineffective Galactic Nanny State.
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Old July 5 2013, 06:51 PM   #126
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Ugh! The chair is not the issue. The sergeant was dismissed (a not so thorough psychiatric exam from Dr Spock, MD) because his lowly character served the narrative purpose of being the buffoon. The pilot, otoh, was accorded respect and honest out of respect for his military and social rank, which would contribute to his sons importance. These were the narrative conventions of the era.
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Old July 5 2013, 07:47 PM   #127
Jonas Grumby
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
Ugh! The chair is not the issue.
You're the one who brought it up.

To be honest, I'm not sure what your issue is.

The sergeant was dismissed (a not so thorough psychiatric exam from Dr Spock, MD) because his lowly character served the narrative purpose of being the buffoon.
I'm not sure what you mean by "dismissed." And, while I think "buffoon" is hyperbole, yes, part of the character's purpose was to provide the audience a few chuckles at the poor guy's befuddlement at the bizarre situation he suddenly finds himself in. What's wrong with that?

The pilot, otoh, was accorded respect and honest...
I really don't get where you're seeing any disrespect for the sergeant. As for the honesty, do you mean because Christopher got shown around the ship and the sergeant didn't? If so, you may need to re-watch the episode. Kirk was showing Christopher around until Spock cautioned him about revealing future details to 20th-century people. After that, both Christopher and the sergeant were on a more or less "need to know" basis.

...out of respect for his military and social rank, which would contribute to his sons importance.
Is that your problem? The possibility that Christopher's son might have gotten his NASA position because of his pop's influence?
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Old July 5 2013, 08:13 PM   #128
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Jonas Grumby wrote: View Post
[Kirk was showing Christopher around until Spock cautioned him about revealing future details to 20th-century people. After that, both Christopher and the sergeant were on a more or less "need to know" basis.
I took this to be the reason the sergeant apparently never made it out of the transporter room. If kirk had been thinking ahead, Captain Christopher would have been isolated there from the start too.

Part of the reason (my opinion) that Kirk showed Christopher around was Kirk was interested in Christopher as a 20th century military pilot. Kirk is thought by some fans to be a history buff, might why his ship was assigned to the time travel investigation of the past.

...out of respect for his military and social rank, which would contribute to his sons importance.
Is that your problem? The possibility that Christopher's son might have gotten his NASA position because of his pop's influence?
While not exactly a dime a dozen, military pilots with the rank of Captain were/are far from rare. If Christopher reached General one day he might have had the pull to get his son a plum government job, but not with a lower rank than that.

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Old July 5 2013, 10:27 PM   #129
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

You're the one who brought it up.
Are you saying that you understood that I mentioned offering the chair as a measure of hospitality and respect rather than a figurative statement?

Is that your problem? The possibility that Christopher's son might have gotten his NASA position because of his pop's influence?
If an episode is to be taken as an example of behavior, values and attitudes promoted by the show, than all such examples must be taken: Christopher and the sergeant. On the other hand, the respect that each character was accorded may simply have been a reflection on how such characters were portrayed in 1960s narratives (and a pilot, even a captain, would enjoy prestige). It would make more sense to compare the portrayal of social relations to other TV programs of the 1960s than to TNG.

Kirk was showing Christopher around until Spock cautioned him about revealing future details to 20th-century people. After that, both Christopher and the sergeant were on a more or less "need to know" basis.
Keeping the sergeant in the transporter room, the sergeant was allowed to observe transporting and food replication.

Of course, once he had experienced matter-energy conversion for himself and been approached by alien life, there were likely few new secrets for the 23rd century to divulge.
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Old July 5 2013, 10:59 PM   #130
Jonas Grumby
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
Are you saying that you understood that I mentioned offering the chair as a measure of hospitality and respect rather than a figurative statement?
I'm saying you offered the lack of an offered chair, along with his being "forced to wander the transporter room" as examples that the sergeant was treated in a somehow inferior manner. I explained why it wasn't.

If an episode is to be taken as an example of behavior, values and attitudes promoted by the show, than all such examples must be taken: Christopher and the sergeant.
This, if I'm understanding you correctly, is nonsense. This is dramatic storytelling. It uses characters, not clones of some idealized perfect person. Different characters behave differently. There is no requirement whatsoever that every character should be "an example of behavior, values and attitudes promoted by the show."

On the other hand, the respect that each character was accorded may simply have been a reflection on how such characters were portrayed in 1960s narratives (and a pilot, even a captain, would enjoy prestige).
You've still shown me no evidence of any actual disparity in the respect shown to Captain Christopher and the sergeant. Is it Christopher's tour vs. the sergeant's restriction to sickbay? The episode itself clearly shows the reason for that. Is it something else? If so, what?

It would make more sense to compare the portrayal of social relations to other TV programs of the 1960s than to TNG.
Even given TNG's enhanced (as compared to TOS) tendencies toward preachiness, I wouldn't find the same situation and scenes at all out of place on Picard's enterprise.

Of course, once he had experienced matter-energy conversion for himself and been approached by alien life, there were likely few new secrets for the 23rd century to divulge.
You can't be serious.
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Old July 6 2013, 02:49 AM   #131
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Anwar wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Because it showed up more, and was treated as something folks respected and were expected to follow whereas TOS' was more a background thing that the audience wasn't expected to pay much attention to.
I really do think it was made into a silly rule and dogma in TNG, whereas it should've been better written. Not interfering is one thing, but when you need to let them die, that's just stupid.
In "Homeward"'s case, they just needed to go further and explain that it wasn't possible to evacuate the planet in time and that would set a precedent for such actions that would lead to an ineffective Galactic Nanny State.

which would have been absurd, but at least it would have been amusing.

Unlike the episode itself, which combined being morally offensive with jusr being boring.
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Old July 6 2013, 03:10 AM   #132
Anwar
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

sonak wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post

I really do think it was made into a silly rule and dogma in TNG, whereas it should've been better written. Not interfering is one thing, but when you need to let them die, that's just stupid.
In "Homeward"'s case, they just needed to go further and explain that it wasn't possible to evacuate the planet in time and that would set a precedent for such actions that would lead to an ineffective Galactic Nanny State.

which would have been absurd, but at least it would have been amusing.

Unlike the episode itself, which combined being morally offensive with jusr being boring.
Amusing to learn that there are possibly realpolitik reasons for not blinding jumping to everyone's aid?
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Old July 6 2013, 03:01 PM   #133
sonak
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Anwar wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post

In "Homeward"'s case, they just needed to go further and explain that it wasn't possible to evacuate the planet in time and that would set a precedent for such actions that would lead to an ineffective Galactic Nanny State.

which would have been absurd, but at least it would have been amusing.

Unlike the episode itself, which combined being morally offensive with jusr being boring.
Amusing to learn that there are possibly realpolitik reasons for not blinding jumping to everyone's aid?

slippery slope arguments are not realpolitik. Just because a humanitarian intervention is doable in one scenario(because of population size, resources, etc.) doesn't mean that the Federation would somehow be forced to intervene throughout the galaxy.
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Old July 7 2013, 12:53 AM   #134
Anwar
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

sonak wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


which would have been absurd, but at least it would have been amusing.

Unlike the episode itself, which combined being morally offensive with jusr being boring.
Amusing to learn that there are possibly realpolitik reasons for not blinding jumping to everyone's aid?

slippery slope arguments are not realpolitik. Just because a humanitarian intervention is doable in one scenario(because of population size, resources, etc.) doesn't mean that the Federation would somehow be forced to intervene throughout the galaxy.
It would set a precedent, and once those are established you've opened up a whole new can of worms you were better off leaving unopened.
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Old July 7 2013, 02:09 AM   #135
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Re: Star Trek morality test - best and worst episodes

Anwar wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post

Amusing to learn that there are possibly realpolitik reasons for not blinding jumping to everyone's aid?

slippery slope arguments are not realpolitik. Just because a humanitarian intervention is doable in one scenario(because of population size, resources, etc.) doesn't mean that the Federation would somehow be forced to intervene throughout the galaxy.
It would set a precedent, and once those are established you've opened up a whole new can of worms you were better off leaving unopened.
I'd say your concern is unwarranted, since we saw the Federation engage in saving species from time-to-time and it didn't become a full-time job.
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