RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,521
Posts: 5,512,249
Members: 25,138
Currently online: 425
Newest member: Tosty82

TrekToday headlines

Captain Kirk’s Boldest Missions
By: T'Bonz on Dec 25

Trek Paper Clips
By: T'Bonz on Dec 24

Sargent Passes
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

QMx Trek Insignia Badges
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

And The New Director Of Star Trek 3 Is…
By: T'Bonz on Dec 23

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 22 2013, 11:05 PM   #46
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Size of starfleet?

that could be a result of Starfleet wanting to honor the loss of that ship and its crew for awhile before launching her successor
Or then Starfleet thought that the name Enterprise was jinxed, as the E-nil, E-A and E-C had all supposedly gone before their time, and the E-B may very well have suffered a similarly embarrassing or horrifying fate...

Starfleet knowing back in the 2340s that the Galaxy class was coming? Doesn't match the TNG Tech Manual ideas or anything in canon. And by such a token, there should never have been an Excelsior class E-B, as the name should have been kept waiting for the "upcoming" Ambassador class.

Does the creation of the Federation and Starfleet necessarily mean those individual miltaries go away?
The dialogue concerning the fate of the Bajoran militia would indeed seem to spell out that this necessarily happens.

Although the old Founding Members might be exceptions to this later rule, of course. But outside FASA, there's no suggestion that Andor would maintain a separate Blue Fleet, and any evidence of a separate Vulcan force is ambiguous at best.

For example, in TMP, you have Spock traveling in a Vulcan designed shuttle.
...One with phasers identical to those of Kirk's ship, and a docking port compatible with those on Kirk's ship. So the design sort of indicates servitude rather than equal partnership... Although we can speculate who is subservient to whom. Vulcans might be the leading shipwrights of the Federation, having introduced the saucer-and-nacelles design by helping build NX-01 and perhaps also her predecessors; humans could still be the leading soldiers. Or then Vulcan shipbuilding has all but died out by the time of ST:TMP, but these "intellectual puppets of the Federation" are in fact the top politicians controlling the joint military.

Much remains to be learned of the setup, but statistically the onscreen evidence keeps mounting to suggest that humans dominate every aspect of Starfleet, that other UFP cultures contribute very little that would be visible, and that there are very few "odd jobs" that would exist outside the joint Starfleet's jurisdiction.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 22 2013, 11:23 PM   #47
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Ferguson, Missouri, USA
Re: Size of starfleet?

that could be a result of Starfleet wanting to honor the loss of that ship and its crew for awhile before launching her successor
Or then Starfleet thought that the name Enterprise was jinxed, as the E-nil, E-A and E-C had all supposedly gone before their time, and the E-B may very well have suffered a similarly embarrassing or horrifying fate...
If that was the case, then Starfleet probably would have stopped using the Enterprise name altogether.

But I think for all intents and purposes, the Enterprise-C was the only starship with the name to be lost with all hands aboard and the sacrifice did have a profound impact on Federation-Klingon relations.
Starfleet knowing back in the 2340s that the Galaxy class was coming? Doesn't match the TNG Tech Manual ideas or anything in canon.
Actually, it does match the TNG Tech Manual, which established the Galaxy-class Project first entered its initial conceptual stage in 2343. As far as anything in canon, it doesn't contradict anything either, but it does nicely explain why there was a gap of twenty years between the two ships.
__________________
"Don't sweat the small stuff--it makes you small-minded..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 23 2013, 04:55 AM   #48
Merry Christmas
Vice Admiral
 
Merry Christmas's Avatar
 
Location: tantalizing t'girl's techno temenos
Re: Size of starfleet?

Unicron wrote: View Post
It's also been suggested in some sources, such as FASA, that not every planet within Federation space is an actual member represented in their government. Some planets are independent on a state/government level and others have an associate membership ...
In one TNG episode, a planet was requesting "associate membership" in the federation. So not all member species necessarily have the same level of participation with the federation, or within the federation structure.

Dictionaries define a associate member as being a member of a organization or club , but having only partial rights and privileges or an subordinate status.

Timo wrote: View Post
Does the creation of the Federation and Starfleet necessarily mean those individual miltaries go away?
The dialogue concerning the fate of the Bajoran militia would indeed seem to spell out that this necessarily happens.
The term used was absorbed (e.g. to accommodate or take in). So the dialog doesn't necessarily mean that the Bajorian militia (or any new Members military services) is dissolved and poured into the Federation's one big bucket. The Bajorian militia likely would have to makes some changes to be able to co-ordinate with Starfleet, and Starfleet might have to make some reciprocal changes to accommodate Bajor.

In one of the (non-canon) novels, a new Federation Member species couldn't see the displays aboard Starfleet vessels, they saw in (iirc) infra-red, longer wavelengths. So Starfleet change all their displays to accommodate them.

But outside FASA, there's no suggestion that Andor would maintain a separate Blue Fleet ...
But in a resent series of novels when Andor decided to leave the Federation and join a different organization, didn't the Andorians retain their portion of the fleet? They took their toys and when home.

... and any evidence of a separate Vulcan force is ambiguous at best.
But there is a reference to a " Vulcan defense vessels."

And there is the matter of Betazed's own defenses, which are referred to as being basically "shitty." Now if Federation Members have no individual forces, and all are protected by a single defensive organization, why are Betazed's defenses different that those of others?

Why aren't Betazed defenses "average?"


Last edited by Merry Christmas; June 23 2013 at 05:06 AM.
Merry Christmas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 23 2013, 11:02 AM   #49
REDrake
Lieutenant
 
REDrake's Avatar
 
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Send a message via Yahoo to REDrake
Re: Size of starfleet?

Cultural imperialism, the defining motto of Starfleet. All personnel must use standard human ranks, ships, uniforms and methods of relaxation.

I do believe that the races within UFP do maintain their ships, even though we never actually see them. I remember being mentioned in a DS9 episode about a planet charted by a vulcan ship.

And there are also those episodes in TNG taking place in Romulan space that involve vulcan ships.

As we never actually meet most of the races in UFP except for some temporary characters, there's no way of knowing their ships.
REDrake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 23 2013, 01:42 PM   #50
Crazyewok
Commander
 
Re: Size of starfleet?

Well I always thought that certain races if they wanted too would keep a small home fleet. Like a local militia

Starfleet would cover Federal level defence but other races could help out by having a small fleet of there own, though it would have no jurisdiction elsewhere.

Also we see Human civilians operating starships in Starfleet independent exploration. Normally Oberth classes or in the case of the Hansen family the Raven. So makes sense other Federation members would do the same
Crazyewok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 23 2013, 02:00 PM   #51
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Size of starfleet?

But there is a reference to a " Vulcan defense vessels."

And there is the matter of Betazed's own defenses, which are referred to as being basically "shitty." Now if Federation Members have no individual forces, and all are protected by a single defensive organization, why are Betazed's defenses different that those of others?
Why wouldn't they be? Starfleet operates a great variety of starships, too - some ancient, some modern, some weak, some strong. The vessels assigned to defend Vulcan need not be identical to the vessels assigned to defend Earth or Starbase 222. The fortresses, even less, as they probably cost even more to keep up to date.

But in a resent series of novels when Andor decided to leave the Federation and join a different organization, didn't the Andorians retain their portion of the fleet? They took their toys and when home.
That's novels for ya. But if it's a case of Andorians reneging on their agreement to be part of Starfleet, they can do whatever they want, confiscating Earth-built and Bolian-manned ships into their new fleet just because these happened to be in Andorian space at the H hour. Either this succeeds or it fails. If the former, getting the ships back is not a legal problem, but a tactical one...

I remember being mentioned in a DS9 episode about a planet charted by a vulcan ship.
In DS9 "Vortex", a Vulcan ship received from Odo a fugitive who would otherwise have stood trial either at Bajor or at the Federation. This vessel may or may not have been a Vulcan government unit, but the clear implication was that a random survey ship like that could be trusted to defy the UFP in matters of prosecution.

The existence of such ships does not count as evidence for there existing a Vulcan armed starship force independent of Starfleet, though. The "we never saw an independent armed defense starship within the UFP" claim still stands.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 23 2013, 09:38 PM   #52
Hando
Lieutenant Commander
 
Hando's Avatar
 
Send a message via ICQ to Hando Send a message via AIM to Hando Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Hando Send a message via Yahoo to Hando
Re: Size of starfleet?

^With the fugitive, it is a similar situation as with Kirk & co. Vulcan gets special treatment in the Federation.

But you should also note the wording: they don't say civilian or something, but Vulcan.


Here is my personal view that will probably go against Christopher's newest book, but once I reed it, I will try to adapt:
The form of Starfleet is not set in stone, as did the actual system of the Federation change over the centuries (from alliance, trough confederation to the present federation, after all, with a low number of members many features were not required) so did Starfleet.
Generally we equate United Earth Starfleet with the Federation Starfleet. But we should not that the Federation Starfleet also contains vessels of some other members (founders for sure, and also some that were somewhat significant before joining).

Lets take a look at the early Starfleet:
The main shipbuilding is in the hands of humans, the have the biggest fleet (as the other 3 members were decimated in the Earth-Romulan war) and they are eager to boldly go...
It would take a decade(s) before the Vulcan, Tellarite, Andorian fleets are at their pre-war levels, if they are rebuilt at all (the Vulcans' new isolationism would not push them to rebuild their fleet).

By TOS, Earth Starfleet dominates the Federation Starfleet. At that time new members join Starfleet rather then build their own, some like never built them in the first place.
(I felt that the conflict Starfleet Academy vs Vulcan Science Academy was a racial one, rather then in academic quality, so it would point to a separation between Starfleet and a Vulcan force. But both would still exist under an Federation Starfleet umbrella...)

But back to actual numbers, here are my guesstimate (ENT from screen and novels, TOS-TNG from registry numbers):

United Earth Starfleet, 2155: 90
United Earth Starfleet, during TOS: 1039 (972-1106)
United Earth Starfleet, 2293: 1114 (961-1267)
Federation Starfleet, 2373: 28883 (28247-29519)
Hando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 23 2013, 11:14 PM   #53
Captain Nebula
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: Size of starfleet?

TheSubCommander wrote: View Post
For example, in TMP, you have Spock traveling in a Vulcan designed shuttle.
It's not a Vulcan designed shuttle. It's the same type of shuttle you see in Star Trek III and IV being used by Starfleet - just with a Warp sled attached in TMP. It's only a shuttle being used by a Vulcan (and named for a Vulcan).
__________________
In space, no one can hear you Die Hard.
Captain Nebula is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 24 2013, 12:04 AM   #54
Crazyewok
Commander
 
Re: Size of starfleet?

I always thought that starfleet was the fedral military with the vulcan ships just being independat sceince ships.
Crazyewok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 24 2013, 01:42 AM   #55
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: Size of starfleet?

REDrake wrote: View Post
Cultural imperialism, the defining motto of Starfleet. All personnel must use standard human ranks, ships, uniforms and methods of relaxation.

I do believe that the races within UFP do maintain their ships, even though we never actually see them. I remember being mentioned in a DS9 episode about a planet charted by a vulcan ship.

And there are also those episodes in TNG taking place in Romulan space that involve vulcan ships.

As we never actually meet most of the races in UFP except for some temporary characters, there's no way of knowing their ships.
For that matter, it's rare enough just to encounter other Stafleet vessels, and the only times we DO is when some Starfleet VIPs are coming aboard the Enterprise or when something really scary is happening relatively close to Earth (and I think by now it's a foregone conclusion that both the Klingon and Romulan empires are both much closer to Earth than they are to most other Federation members).

The large fleets of DS9 seem to suggest we are "finally" seeing what all of Starfleet looks like, but in context that's unlikely. MOST of those ships are a hundred years old and probably fresh out of mothballs; I wouldn't be surprised if the Hathaway wound up getting pushed back into service to fight the Dominion (or Stargazer, for that matter). That, therefore, would be Earth's Starfleet making its contribution on their specific front of the Dominion War. It stands to reason the Suliban and the Xindi probably had a pretty rough time in the Delphic front as well.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 24 2013, 06:04 AM   #56
Merry Christmas
Vice Admiral
 
Merry Christmas's Avatar
 
Location: tantalizing t'girl's techno temenos
Re: Size of starfleet?

Captain Nebula wrote: View Post
It's not a Vulcan designed shuttle.
How are you determining who designed it?

The "warp sled" shuttle shown does have (presumably) Vulcan marking on it's skin (and English script too). And we never see that particular design operated elsewhere by non-Vulcans, and the uniquely shaped combination warp/impulse engine nacelles are also never seen again

It's the same type of shuttle you see in Star Trek III and IV being used by Starfleet
No, those are different

It's only a shuttle being used by a Vulcan (and named for a Vulcan).
Uhura: " Signal from a Federation-registered long-range shuttle, sir."

That doesn't sound like "Starfleet" to me.

Hando wrote: View Post
By TOS, Earth Starfleet dominates the Federation Starfleet. At that time new members join Starfleet rather then build their own, some like never built them in the first place.
That other Federation Member species would use Earth designed and built starships might be like what you see around the world today.

Many national navies used warships (and other type ships) built in foreign shipyards, most simply can't build naval vessels above the size of a large patrol boat.

In the case of Brazil's Navy (Marinha do Brasil), the destroyers come from the UK, the aircraft carrier is from France, and the new submarines are coming from Spain.

Few nations build their own aircraft either, perhaps this will be the case with future shuttles.

The Oberth science ship might be an example of a non-Earth design, it certainly seems to have a different engine design.

REDrake wrote: View Post
I do believe that the races within UFP do maintain their ships, even though we never actually see them.
We also largely don't see the 150 plus species either.

Merry Christmas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 24 2013, 06:22 PM   #57
vulcan redshirt
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: UK
Re: Size of starfleet?

Although the starfleet crews we generally see in ST are largely human (for TV production reasons), an in-universe explanation for the prevalence of Earth Starfleet type vessels (and generally human crews - OK you could have identical non-human humanoids too) would go right back to the founding of the Federation. My theory:

Earth managed to get allies to help with fighting off the Romulans. Therfore Earth needed the others, more than, say Andor, need Earth. Hence the agreement behind the Federation was that Earth would put the most materiel and personnel into the fight (and later the Federation). This, although allowing the other races to reap the rewards of the alliance - but not risking too much, would later work massively in Earth's favour, with the running of Starfleet (and effectively the Federation) being controlled from Earth. Hence in ST6, the Klingons call the Federation a 'homo-sapiens only club', because of the prevalence of humans in the Federation.

Second, going back to the founding of the Federation, given the long cold war (with occasional flashpoints) between Andor and Vulcan, and the peace process assisted by Earth, these two worlds agreed to disarm in order to foster trust on both sides. The existing ships (that survived the Romulan War were probably partly absorbed into Starfleet under a mixed command crew structure and the rest scrapped. Just like on Earth, there are stll treaties limiting the military strength of Japan and Germany, even though the conflicts that forced these treaties are well into the past, the Andor - Vulcan disarmament treaty was probably never fully rescinded, leading to a significantly reduced participation in Starfleet by these races.

I would also agree with the assessment that Federation member worlds that had a 'Home Guard' fleet before joining the Federation would probably keep this to some extent, a bit like a coastguard fleet, but not with the power to do much more.

When a new world is taken into the Federation, where possible, manpower and equipment would probably be absorbed (except for the 'coastguard' role, but would be phased out as an independent force. Bajor, for example, the militias would need significant retraining to function in the Federation military structure, and their kit was outdated and probably on its last legs, so likely headed for the scrapyard (and a few museums) fairly quickly.

We know that the N? prefix denoted a vessel under Federation government ownership, as opposed to private vessels / commercial vessels belonging to someone based on a Federation world, or even planetary coastguard vessels. I would consider it likely that on the absorbsion of a new member's military into Starfleet, any vessels brought in would be given an NCC number (if military) or an N? if another type. This could explain some of the massive numbering jumps, of at least 60,000 registries between TOS and TNG, with short-serving absorbed vessels.

A last thought on mixed-crew vessels, we know that Vulcans are used to a warmer atmosphere than humans and that andorians for example are used to a colder environment. Although quarters can be environmentally controlled to the user's preference, communal areas must strike a balance. An Andorian, serving on a mainly Vulcan crewed vessel would probably be unconfortably hot, and if a Vulcan would be unconfortably cold on an Andorian crewed vessel, so these arrangements are generally not used. Other species, we know, also have variable atmospheric requirements an also probably different requirements for temperature and gravity also.

In summary, this would seem to answer some of the discrepancies noted between the number of active vessels in Starfleet compared to the number ever registered since 2161, and also the presence of generally human majority crewing.
vulcan redshirt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 5 2013, 07:19 AM   #58
Captain Nebula
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: Size of starfleet?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Captain Nebula wrote: View Post
It's not a Vulcan designed shuttle.
How are you determining who designed it?
Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise.

It says that it was designed by Chiokis Starship Construction Corporation (according to several websites, CSCC is based on Thelavor). But only the shuttle itself. It doesn't mention the Warp Sled at all. It does say that it is "Starfleet's standard personnel shuttlecraft."

I think Chiokis may have also been used by the FASA Star Trek roleplaying game, but I can't find it. They used some of the same names in both the FASA Starship Construction Manual as they do in Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise. I have no idea if those names are considered 'canon' or not. It also mentions in the Starship Construction Guide that "Paul Anders of Shuvinaaljis Warp Technologies" designed the miniature warp engines for the courier.

Here's a picture from the Mr. Scott's Guide. It's very similar to Spock's shuttle that detached from the warp sled in TMP, but with Enterprise markings.



I think you can see the back of one in the shuttlebay in TMP (maybe only in the Director's Cut). I'm pretty sure it's the same shuttle that rescues the crew in San Fransisco bay after they let the whales go at the end of Star Trek IV. And I think there's one flitting around inside the Spacedock in Star Trek III.

Here's the listing for the Long Range Shuttle at Memory Alpha.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Long_range_shuttle

I can't find any other reference for it. Memory Alpha says that there was another Long Range Shuttle of the same type called the Laika. Which was the name of one of the dogs the Russians sent to space in the 50's or 60's.
__________________
In space, no one can hear you Die Hard.
Captain Nebula is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5 2013, 10:14 PM   #59
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Size of starfleet?

I think you can see the back of one in the shuttlebay in TMP (maybe only in the Director's Cut).
Nope, the matte paintings portraying shuttles like this (but not these - Andrew Probert specifically designed a separate, smaller variant to be seen in the mattes) were left out from all of the incarnations of this movie.

Incidentally, the picture in Mr Scott's Guide is actually of this smaller variant designed to be seen aboard Kirk's ship; it has the prominent side door and the larger docking tube in relation to overall size.

I'm pretty sure it's the same shuttle that rescues the crew in San Fransisco bay after they let the whales go at the end of Star Trek IV.
Nope, nothing similar about them. The ST4 shuttle has a big, rounded window in front and in general is very rounded overall.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tvhhd2132.jpg

And I think there's one flitting around inside the Spacedock in Star Trek III.
Several - but of the type also seen in ST4, not of the type seen in ST:TMP. The Vulcan shuttle never appears in Star Trek outside ST:TMP.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 6 2013, 12:37 AM   #60
Merry Christmas
Vice Admiral
 
Merry Christmas's Avatar
 
Location: tantalizing t'girl's techno temenos
Re: Size of starfleet?

Captain Nebula wrote: View Post
Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise.
The problem with that reference is that Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise is a independant work of fiction by the writer Shane Johnson. Large sections of "Guide" is supposition on Mister Johnson's part.

The image you posted (from page 95) is of a shuttle that is significately smaller that the shuttle from the movie. The side doors are different shaped. I've include a production photo of the model shuttle used in the movie. Note the sizes of the aft docking ports.







Timo wrote: View Post
Incidentally, the picture in Mr Scott's Guide is actually of this smaller variant designed to be seen aboard Kirk's ship; it has the prominent side door and the larger docking tube in relation to overall size.
Given it's size, the Vulcan shuttle probably could have landed on the flight deck, but would have been too tall to have fit on the deck below the flight deck, the "maintanance shop."

Merry Christmas is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
no ships near earth, starfleet

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:37 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.