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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old June 24 2013, 11:25 AM   #31
Lighthammer
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

solariabsg25, you're mixing apples and oranges here.

Here's an example of how I've heard the SGA contracts explained to me in the past:

An actor is allowed to be cast as a single character in a continued series as a primary character for a standard flat fee per season. That same actor can be asked to play a second character other then the main character in any given episode for half cost, however, if they asked to play a third character in that same episode, they are paid at double the rate. If they are asked to play the established character they signed on for in that season in another series, they're paid at essentially time and a half (Yes, this includes playing mirror versions of the same character).

Moreover, I know there's also some provisions in SOME contracts that basically say "If you're dressed and ready to act and the scene takes less than X, it only costs Y", but I know generally speaking, most actors hate signing those sorts of contracts because they tend to get surprise scenes thrown at them at the time. Put in context of "your" job --- I don't think you'd like it much if your job description said allowed your company to randomly go to another location on demand without much notice >.< A lot of this might sound shocking if you've never dealt with SGA (and I don't purport to be any kind of expert, I just have some passing experience with it) but its all logical when you sit back and think about what actors go through for a second.

Now AS FAR AS I KNOW --- this applies only to main cast as far as SGA normal contracts go and has been fairly standard since the 80s.

There is a whole separate set of guidelines for recurring cast members and as far as I know the only norm there is they contracted to appear in X number of episodes. Weather there is any other weirdness going on BESIDES THAT, I don't know, but I'd expect its on a case by case basis depending on the needs of the character.

Then you have guest stars. They are contracted for one episode at a time and there is generally no provisions whatsoever related to other related franchises.

So putting this into perspective, let's take a crossover episode: DS9's Premier - Emissary
- Patrick Stewart being in that series meant he was being paid time and a half for that episode. If they could have done without him, they could have easily paid lesser known actors to fill out a lot more of the pilot or used the savings on the acting budget for something else. Lets face it, by the time Season 6 rolled around, Patrick Stewart was making damned good money and that was probably one of the most expensive parts of the acting budget for that episode.

So, Solariabsg25, to break down your list there:

- Kurn, Toral, Kang, Kor, Koloth and Barclay were only ever guest stars. They would have had ZERO
- Riker and Troi completed there contracts on TNG by the time season 3 of DS9 hit. At that point, they would have been treated as guest stars.
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Old June 24 2013, 03:04 PM   #32
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

No, you missed my point. I wasn't talking specifically about the SGA contracts, just the general issue of using established characters.

Many shows (Trek and the others I mentioned) have used cross-over characters. If Trek had wanted to use Thomas Riker, or Picard, or Troi more often, I don't think they'd have cared too much about paying the SGA salary that was required if they felt the choice of character was necessary. They seem to have just made an artistic choice to limit the use of characters in cross-overs.

The only rights-based issue I ever heard discussed was the Locarno/Paris situation, where for all intents and purposes the characters were almost identical, yet they went for a different name, even though they used the same actor. Whether that was a rights choice (not wanting to pay the creator of the Locarno character for his use) or an artistic choice (they felt Locarno was a douche and beyond redeeming) I don't know.

Doctor Who has a rights issue thing where creators of various monsters have to be credited and/or compensated for their use if they turn up in the show at a later date (Daleks and Cybermen being the prime examples). I don't know if the issue is similar in Hollywood, only knowing the examples that Fox fought tooth and nail to try to not have any acknowledgement of HR Giger in Alien 3, and had to pay Micheal Biehn a shedload of money to simply use his image in the movie.

I've as of yet never heard anything that would indicate they dropped a cross-over idea as it would have meant paying the cross-over actor too much, but of course that may have also happened, and it's practical - why use Picard when you can use Admiral Ross and do the same job cheaper, with a guest star who has been specifically picked for the recurring role?
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Old June 25 2013, 03:56 AM   #33
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

The thing is, shows have a budget. IIRC (someone around here might have a better beat on this) was about $1.5 million per episode, but inside of that $1.5 mil you have pay your entire staff (actors included), pay studio costs, lighting, sfx costs, set costs, promotion costs, etc, etc, etc. That $1.5 mil sounds like a lot to the average person but once everything is paid off, you're lucky if you have enough for a 2 or 3 guest stars and a few special odds and ends for that episode. Some episodes might be a little more conservative so other episodes can have a bigger budget.

The thing that actually kind of drives me a little nuts in this whole ordeal is Picard and Co. were generally available after season 3 of DS9 and baring physical actor availability, it would have made a whole bunch of sense to involve the Enterprise more closely with what was going on in the war. Heck, we almost could have used Picard in place of Ross in most situations since --- you know 7th Fleet and all.
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Old June 29 2013, 09:51 PM   #34
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

Maybe Patrick Stewart was busy with other jobs? Like films, theatre and other television... You make it sound like he's just sitting around waiting for the phone to ring from Rick Berman. Ok, that's almost certainly true for the rest of the TNG cast, but Stewart's not exactly been out of work since TNG finished.
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Old June 30 2013, 01:26 AM   #35
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

On Doctor Who, they managed to get the entire cast from all three shows (Who, Torchwood, and Sarah Jane Adventures) together for the season 4 finale.

Crossovers can be done. I always thought it was a budgetary issue. They'd have to pay two entire casts to appear in the same episode.

I think Sito Jaxa would make sense, for a DS9 crossover. Another feisty Bajoran, like Ro or Kira. I liked the character, and think she would have fit in on the darker DS9
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Old June 30 2013, 01:06 PM   #36
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

Tomalak wrote: View Post
Maybe Patrick Stewart was busy with other jobs? Like films, theatre and other television... You make it sound like he's just sitting around waiting for the phone to ring from Rick Berman. Ok, that's almost certainly true for the rest of the TNG cast, but Stewart's not exactly been out of work since TNG finished.
Let's keep some timings in mind here --- what was going on during the 3rd season of DS9? Star Trek Generations the movie.

What was going on during the 6th/7th season of DS9? First Contact.

Its really not as though the Star Trek TNG actors weren't somewhat easily accessible. It doesn't mean they didn't have blocks, but they all had to have some level of accessibly time wise.

Contract wise could be a different story.
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Old June 30 2013, 04:09 PM   #37
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

Lighthammer wrote: View Post
What was going on during the 6th/7th season of DS9? First Contact.
Actually, that's wrong. First Contact took place during the fifth season of DS9. Insurrection happened during the seventh.

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Old July 1 2013, 01:38 AM   #38
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

One thing that always bugged me about Voyager is that several of the characters didn't seem to know about the Dominion.

EMH 2: The Romulans haven't got involved in our conflict with the Dominion
EMH 1: The who?

You'd think that the EMH would be programmed with knowledge about the Federation's newest threat (VOY season 1 occurs during DS9 season three, when the Dominion threat was real, and known about). Particularly since the Voyager holodeck had a shuttle training programme with Jem 'Hadar fighters as the opponents.

Chakotay: The Cardassians had help from a new ally (when describing the massacre of the Maquis)

We did get a few crossovers between TNG and DS9, and TNG and VOY, but not many between DS9 and VOY (except Doc Zimmerman, mirror Tuvok, and Quark showing up in Caretaker)
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Old July 1 2013, 02:19 AM   #39
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

^First contact with the Dominion happened a few months before Voyager was lost, so anyone with Starfleet should have known about them. Chakotay was with the Maquis, so that might explain why he didn't know anything.

As for the EMH, I suppose he would only have been programmed with knowledge of species he'd be expected to treat. The Federation's first experience with treating a Jem'Hadar solider came during "The Abandoned." Bashir treated the child who eventually grew into an adult and learned about his genetic enhancements and drug addiction. Depending on whether that information was classified, the Doctor may not have known anything related to the Dominion.

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Old July 4 2013, 05:27 AM   #40
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

^Yeah, Sran, but was Starfleet well-aware of the dangers of the Dominion before Voyager's fateful mission? (I'm asking).

The OP made my heart sink. I SO wish there would have been more DS9 crossover episodes! Such a shame that there weren't. Spock would have been awesome as a recurring character. You just disappointed me after-the-fact by telling me the Spock idea was on the drawing board.

As awesome as DS9 was, just a few more crossover episodes would have made it undeniably EPIC. (Oh who am I kidding? It was already undeniably epic. Even MORE epic. That's what I meant).
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Old July 4 2013, 01:46 PM   #41
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

Nimoy was done with Spock after TUC pretty much, he only did Unification to promote the film. Maybe he would have done DS9, but I'm not convinced.
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Old July 4 2013, 05:36 PM   #42
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

Vulcan Logician wrote: View Post
^Yeah, Sran, but was Starfleet well-aware of the dangers of the Dominion before Voyager's fateful mission? (I'm asking).
Yes. "The Search" happened on stardate 48213.1. "Caretaker" happened on 48315.6. Without knowing the length each digit represents, it's reasonable to conclude that at least several weeks passed between these episodes. Starfleet definitely should have known about the Dominion and the threat they represented by the time Voyager was ready to launch.

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Old July 4 2013, 06:40 PM   #43
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

Sran wrote: View Post
Vulcan Logician wrote: View Post
^Yeah, Sran, but was Starfleet well-aware of the dangers of the Dominion before Voyager's fateful mission? (I'm asking).
Yes. "The Search" happened on stardate 48213.1. "Caretaker" happened on 48315.6. Without knowing the length each digit represents, it's reasonable to conclude that at least several weeks passed between these episodes. Starfleet definitely should have known about the Dominion and the threat they represented by the time Voyager was ready to launch.

--Sran
It doesn't mean that Janeway (or the Maquis) was given a full briefing though. They might be aware that the Odyssey was destroyed in a battle in the Gamma Quadrant, but that's not exactly relevant to Voyager's mission to hunt down Chakotay's ship in the Badlands.

Given she set off from Deep Space Nine, you imagine Janeway might have at the very least have met Sisko, but then again since the Defiant isn't there in Caretaker, the main crew might have been away on a mission. Caretaker occurs between The Abandoned and Civil Defence in stardate chronology.
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Old July 4 2013, 08:37 PM   #44
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Wading in to murking waters here. In NEM Riker was given command of a ship we never see. The USS Titan. In 2005 there was a contest for the USS TItan pocket books. To design what the ship would look like. Now this is the books so it's canoncity status is shakey.
As I understand canon, the books aren't shakey, they're completely outside. From what I gather from the few fans I know who still read the novels, the story line has venture so far outside the continuity of the shows/movies that they're basically in their own separate science fiction universe now.

If (very unlikely) there were ever a series based on Captain Riker of the USS Titan (younger actor), odds are the ship in that series would look nothing like that ship from the contest on the novel covers. And the ship's crew would be different that those depicted in the novel stories.

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Old July 4 2013, 10:44 PM   #45
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Re: Unused crossover ideas

In the olden days (the nineties!) when I read some of the novels, they were always made to fit with the TV series and films rather than form their own continuity, so there was rarely a massive conflict there. Now with the more "expanded universe" continuity in the novels, anything that happens in the prime universe after Nemesis in any future series or films will probably contradict those. Which is fair enough. I like the idea of that internal continuity, because I feel it rewards the loyal readers and makes for a richer set of characters. On the other hand, from my point of view it makes me almost certain to never read another Star Trek book again! I can't commit to picking up everything published to keep up with the story. I used to like the short story anthologies, because you could just pick them up and enjoy. Shame they cancelled the Strange New Worlds series.

JJ's upcoming Star Wars sequels will almost certainly render Star Wars' novel continuity null and void, which will be quite funny to watch from the sidelines.
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