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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old July 3 2013, 01:31 AM   #46
Navigator_NCC2120
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Re: Klingon Battle Cruiser

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
Cap'n Caveman wrote: View Post
Robert, since the Klingon Empire was the Star Trek equivalent to the Soviet Union when the show aired, I think that Klingon technology was supposed to be somewhat crude compared to Federation tech, since any Soviet tech at the time was also somewhat crude, but still highly effective.
AND dangerous to use with a rather low regard to the safety of the respective Soviet crews, as the numerous incidents, accidents and near-accidents especially in the first Soviet nuclear subs and their space program illustrate.
Thus if you continue the analogy it actually makes sense to assume, that the crew of the Klingon battlecruiser was crammed into the small "bulb" at the bow, at a somewhat safe distance from the hazardous engineering/drive section.

Mario
Jeez. Assuming the Klingon engineering section is a radioactive disaster-in-waiting, I wonder what kind of weird mutations occurred to the Tribbles Scotty beamed into the Klingon engine room in Trouble With Tribbles?
Good point Kevman7987. I seriously doubt that the D-7 stored its shuttlecraft in the "bulb" section too, to avoid radiation contamination. So I don't buy the idea that the drive section of the D-7 is a radiation hazard.


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Old July 3 2013, 12:07 PM   #47
Robert Comsol
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Re: Klingon Battle Cruiser

Metryq wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
400 aliens (i.e. not Klingons) that did serve as "slaves" to run the ship in the engineering hull.
Even before you mentioned triremes (monotremes?), I was thinking of rowers in the engineering hull. Talk about back-breaking work getting a mass that large up to the speed of light!

Then there's the A4/V2 of World War II, which killed more people from its manufacture than from its deployment.
That's not exactly what I tried to imply but for a second I was having such an image in my mind, too: "Warp Speed - Row faster you miserable dogs!"

And just as your example shows, I think it's a realistic assumption that a totalitarian state, regardless whether you think of Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia or another totalitarian state (Klingon Empire, Romulan Star Empire, the Cardassians etc.) will abuse all the people it imprisoned and condamn these to slave labor (for whatever ethnical and/or political reasons).

DS9's mirror universe provided an illustration (although I find mining work aboard DS9 to be rather hard to believe) but given the biohazards you'll most likely encounter in any TOS engineering hull, even the Klingons would probably put personnel there (aliens, convicts etc.) they consider to be expendable.

I'm not saying a D-7's engineering hull is a radioactive contamination hell, but probably a place where longer / permanent exposure to the radiation there will probably shorten your life expectancy considerably.

Bob
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Old July 3 2013, 07:53 PM   #48
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Re: Klingon Battle Cruiser

On a more basic level, it's a nasty, boring job. Much more fun to be on the bridge firing torpedoes at things, and letting the slaves clean the impulse manifolds. It doesn't have to be actively hazardous to be undesirable, especially for war-like Klingons.

Why have an Empire unless you can use conquered peoples to do your dirty work?
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Old July 4 2013, 08:41 AM   #49
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Re: Klingon Battle Cruiser

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I'm not saying a D-7's engineering hull is a radioactive contamination hell, but probably a place where longer / permanent exposure to the radiation there will probably shorten your life expectancy considerably.
That was my thinking as well. And in addition, there may just be a higher risk of other kinds of accidents due to technology that is not quite state-of-the-art.
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Old July 4 2013, 12:37 PM   #50
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Re: Klingon Battle Cruiser

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
An analogy to a Klingon Battlecruiser might be the Roman Trireme (Roman galley) where most of the operators required for "propulsion" were slaves. Admittedly, that's a crew complement you'd rather expect to see with the Rom(ul)ans, but maybe an explanation how they got their name during the Earth-Romulan War...from a strictly TOS point of view, of course.
Although this is not really the topic of this thread, I nonetheless would like to correct this very common misconception: There is no proof whatsoever that Rome or other ancient powers utilized slaves as rowers on their galleys.
An article on galleys can be found here, pay attention to the last topic "rowers":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galley

During a battle galleys solely relied on their rowers for speed and maneuverability and thus ultimately for their survival. So the rowers had to be healthy, well nourished, motivated and able to work as a team - that many oars had to be operated in unison and as needed. Ben-Hur perfectly illustrates what happens when (ill-treated) slaves are being used instead.

Mario
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Old July 4 2013, 06:21 PM   #51
Robert Comsol
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Re: Klingon Battle Cruiser

I read up on the subject and, indeed, "Ben Hur" has created the myth of a concentration camp aboard a Roman ship. Sometimes slaves were used but in such cases they were promised freedom for good service. Of course, we have to consider the possibility that the creators of Star Trek or their historical knowledge had been influenced by "Ben Hur" starring Charlton Heston.

But the "galley penalty" became a form of punishment at the end of the 15th Century and the fictional nightmare we saw in "Ben Hur" became a reality for convicts during that time up until the 19th and 20th Century!

Spain adopted it early in the 16th Century, galley convicts were bought and sold like slaves. After I actually read the Hornblower novels my perception of the Klingons changed drastically. If Captain Kirk was Hornblower, then the Klingons were the Spaniards!!!

But whatever the case, the idea of a concentration camp aboard a ship is a concept the Klingons wouldn't mind to adopt, IMHO.

Bob
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Old July 4 2013, 06:29 PM   #52
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Re: Klingon Battle Cruiser

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post

During a battle galleys solely relied on their rowers for speed and maneuverability and thus ultimately for their survival. So the rowers had to be healthy, well nourished, motivated and able to work as a team - that many oars had to be operated in unison and as needed. Ben-Hur perfectly illustrates what happens when (ill-treated) slaves are being used instead.

Mario
I'm not sure why you're citing Ben-Hur as evidence. Romans didn't (generally) mistreat their slaves, as they were investments. What's the point in keeping people so weak that they couldn't do the job they were bought to carry out?
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Old July 4 2013, 07:13 PM   #53
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Re: Klingon Battle Cruiser

Tomalak wrote: View Post
Mario de Monti wrote: View Post

During a battle galleys solely relied on their rowers for speed and maneuverability and thus ultimately for their survival. So the rowers had to be healthy, well nourished, motivated and able to work as a team - that many oars had to be operated in unison and as needed. Ben-Hur perfectly illustrates what happens when (ill-treated) slaves are being used instead.

Mario
I'm not sure why you're citing Ben-Hur as evidence.
I was citing Ben-Hur, because thats the movie that established the myth of galley slaves, AFAIK (if you dont count the silent movie, the stage production and the initial novel that its based on).

Tomalak wrote: View Post
Romans didn't (generally) mistreat their slaves, as they were investments. What's the point in keeping people so weak that they couldn't do the job they were bought to carry out?
My point exactly
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Old July 4 2013, 08:33 PM   #54
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Re: Klingon Battle Cruiser

I always liked the d7 cruiser design as well. One of the best cinematic shots of both Star Trek and sci fi in general for space ships is the opening scene of TMP with the three D7s flying in formation.
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Old July 4 2013, 08:50 PM   #55
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Re: Klingon Battle Cruiser

...Luckily, Trek never got to abuse it the way the "camera pans down to reveal a planet, then a ship or two" opening shot was abused in SW.

FWIW, the long neck conforms to the idea of reducing your silhouette in directions that count. A sphere has the lowest silhouette for a given volume when all directions are equal, but something spindly like the Klingon or Vulcan designs really is best for the Trek sort of combat where ships fly forward, then turn to change direction. And it's rather thrilling to realize that the Vulcan ringships are the more effective and deadlier application of this...

Timo Saloniemi
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Old July 5 2013, 02:25 PM   #56
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Re: Klingon Battle Cruiser

Timo wrote: View Post
...Luckily, Trek never got to abuse it the way the "camera pans down to reveal a planet, then a ship or two" opening shot was abused in SW.

FWIW, the long neck conforms to the idea of reducing your silhouette in directions that count. A sphere has the lowest silhouette for a given volume when all directions are equal, but something spindly like the Klingon or Vulcan designs really is best for the Trek sort of combat where ships fly forward, then turn to change direction. And it's rather thrilling to realize that the Vulcan ringships are the more effective and deadlier application of this...

Timo Saloniemi
But as soon as the enemy gets a side, dorsal, or ventral shot in at you, you're screwed.
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Old July 6 2013, 11:11 AM   #57
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Re: Klingon Battle Cruiser

But ships almost never attack from above or below in Star Trek, for some reason. Therefore I suppose it makes sense to have shallow, wide shapes like saucers in ship construction.
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Old July 7 2013, 11:36 PM   #58
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Re: Klingon Battle Cruiser

But as soon as the enemy gets a side, dorsal, or ventral shot in at you, you're screwed.
Not really. The spindly Vulcan shapes minimize side profile as well, if not in total area then in terms of the maximum dimensions of the area - they're harder to hit than identical-volume spheres no matter how you look at it. A spindle is a good shape no matter whether you fly it point first or sideways, but the former a) looks good and b) helps you more in fights you initiate!

The Klingon ships remain spindles in side view, even though their wing structure presents a big target to dorsal and ventral threats. Many Starfleet vessels have the same dorsal-ventral weakness, due to their saucers and sometimes their engine pylons. Why is that? One could argue that ships at warp tend to conform to local subspace fields or something, and hence maintain like orientation. But most fighting takes place at sublight, and there any orientation ought to be possible. Why have the vulnerable saucers or wings rather than smaller-target-area cylinders or spheres or spindles?

Well, the Feds might trade combat prowess for other things such as comfort - big broad decks might be much more useful than lots of smaller ones, or decks curved like onion shells inside a sphere. Klingons in turn might want to have actual wings for atmospheric lift, as they take such a holistic view to warfare...

Not that the Vulcan warp rings should make for poor aerodynamic surfaces, though. Ring wings have many advantages and have been used in guided bombs for a century now. Perhaps the Vulcan warp mechanism does double as a lifting surface on occasion?

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Old July 8 2013, 01:40 AM   #59
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Re: Klingon Battle Cruiser

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
However, I can't concur with some posters that the head only holds the officers quarters while the crew quaters are located in the engineering hull.
The Klingons have a aristocratic social hierarchy, the officers (with some exceptions) come from the ruling houses. The enlisted crew come from "the commoners." Having a physical separation between the living/sleeping arrangments would reinforce this social order.

Plus there might not be all that much room in the bulb, what with forward disruptors, torpedo system, sensors, control facilities, life support and what not. The officers by themselves might be pretty tightly packed

I believe Klingon technology to be somewhat inferior and crude in comparison to Federation technology ...
This could only be taken so far and still have the Klingon Empire be a viable threat the the Federation.

The crude way their ships appear could be a culturally driven look, deliberately cramped, misty and with low light levels. When Kirk ordered his ship out of Romulan space at warp 9, the D-7 chasing him was able to match his speed.


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Old July 8 2013, 01:56 AM   #60
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Re: Klingon Battle Cruiser

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
...Luckily, Trek never got to abuse it the way the "camera pans down to reveal a planet, then a ship or two" opening shot was abused in SW.

FWIW, the long neck conforms to the idea of reducing your silhouette in directions that count. A sphere has the lowest silhouette for a given volume when all directions are equal, but something spindly like the Klingon or Vulcan designs really is best for the Trek sort of combat where ships fly forward, then turn to change direction. And it's rather thrilling to realize that the Vulcan ringships are the more effective and deadlier application of this...

Timo Saloniemi
But as soon as the enemy gets a side, dorsal, or ventral shot in at you, you're screwed.
In an era of computer targeting systems and sensors, does a smaller profile really offer a more difficult target?
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