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Old July 3 2013, 03:48 PM   #46
Pavonis
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

How much redemption would Tom Paris need? How much of a bad guy was he? He was captured on his first Maquis mission. Was that before or after the mission was completed? And what was the mission? Blow up a hoverbus full of Cardassian kids? Or destroy a Cardassian weapons depot?

Was Tom Paris ever really a bad guy, or was he just a wannabe?
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Old July 3 2013, 05:27 PM   #47
Anwar
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

What didn't really make sense was that Paris was brought onboard for his experience with the Maquis, but said experience was just one mission or so.

Most likely it was just an excuse cooked up to get an Admiral's son out of jail, not for "redemption" or "Maquis experience" or whatever.
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Old July 3 2013, 05:30 PM   #48
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

asp7485 wrote: View Post
Like others have said about Locarno/Paris, I also think having Dukat be Macet doesn't work. The character on DS9 was the person who ran the occupation of Bajor. This likely wouldn't be the same person Cardassia would send to deal with the situation in "The Wounded."
Promotions happen you know. That's like saying Worf can't command the Defiant because he only was a Lieutenant junior grade conn officer in season one of TNG or that Picard couldn't be a captain because he's the type of person who starts bar fights in college.
Pavonis wrote: View Post
How much redemption would Tom Paris need? How much of a bad guy was he? He was captured on his first Maquis mission. Was that before or after the mission was completed? And what was the mission? Blow up a hoverbus full of Cardassian kids? Or destroy a Cardassian weapons depot?

Was Tom Paris ever really a bad guy, or was he just a wannabe?
Wannabe or not, any court would convict someone who willingly joined a terrorist group, expecially if that someone previously caused deaths due to recklessness.

I am not Spock wrote: View Post
Was that dude on the Enterprise D's bridge, played by Josh Clark, in TNG's Justice, meant to be Joe Carey from Voyager? It could be the same guy.
Good eye. It could be the same guy.
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Old July 3 2013, 06:06 PM   #49
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
maneth wrote: View Post
A terrorist is just a freedom fighter by another name. Whether he counts as a hero or a villain depends entirely on your point of view.
BS.

There's certainly overlap between 'Terrorist' and 'Freedom fighter'. The Maquis and the Bajoran resistance fall into that overlap.

Pretty hard to describe Terra Firma, The Circle or abortion clinic bombers as 'Freedom fighters'. Terrorists who fight not for freedom, but to force people to follow their own will.
You hit it pretty good. Terrorism in the end is just a method. A morally questionable one at best, but generally the only way a small group can effectively fight a bigger one in the technological age. Not all terrorists are freedom fighters or are even remotely interested in freedom.

The Maquis and Bajorans were certainly freedom fighters, along with Damar's resistance.
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Old July 3 2013, 06:07 PM   #50
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
How much redemption would Tom Paris need? How much of a bad guy was he? He was captured on his first Maquis mission. Was that before or after the mission was completed? And what was the mission? Blow up a hoverbus full of Cardassian kids? Or destroy a Cardassian weapons depot?

Was Tom Paris ever really a bad guy, or was he just a wannabe?
Well they were treating him like the scum of the Earth in the Voyager pilot, but Starfleet is a very cliquish place.
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Old July 3 2013, 06:10 PM   #51
Pavonis
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

bbjeg wrote: View Post
asp7485 wrote: View Post
Like others have said about Locarno/Paris, I also think having Dukat be Macet doesn't work. The character on DS9 was the person who ran the occupation of Bajor. This likely wouldn't be the same person Cardassia would send to deal with the situation in "The Wounded."
Promotions happen you know. That's like saying Worf can't command the Defiant because he only was a Lieutenant junior grade conn officer in season one of TNG or that Picard couldn't be a captain because he's the type of person who starts bar fights in college.
Except that it was established that Dukat was already Prefect back when Macet was just a starship commander.

Wannabe or not, any court would convict someone who willingly joined a terrorist group, expecially if that someone previously caused deaths due to recklessness.
Yes, he was convicted and serving time for the crime of being associated with the Maquis. There's no question he was a criminal. How bad was he, though? Was Paris on a mission to terrorize civilians, or attack legitimate military targets? Did he even accomplish his mission, or was he prevented from doing so by his capture?
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Old July 3 2013, 06:44 PM   #52
Charles Phipps
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

maneth wrote: View Post
A terrorist is just a freedom fighter by another name. Whether he counts as a hero or a villain depends entirely on your point of view.
Yeah. The thing is about guerrilla warfare is that the gray area is pretty difficult. It's easy to label purely civilian targets as terrorism but it's hard for people who have military targets blown up to NOT call it terrorism. In RL, we still label the military housing and Pentagon attacks as terrorism and rightly so. Because we're angry and not inclined to be forgiving to those who murdered friends and loved ones.

But even if we were so forgiving, the line is nebulous. Let's say Gul Dukat is having a Klingon coffee at Quarks and a Bajoran resistance group blows it up, killing 30 people but taking out Gul Dukat and his guards. Is that terrorism? What about blowing up Cardassian settlements on Bajor? If occupation and settlement is the goal, what about making that difficult. What about a weapons factory? The United States entered WW1 for blowing up the Lusitania despite the fact that it was ferrying weapons. Everyone in the USA was outraged, however, by the attack because of the heavy civilian deaths.

War, itself, is fundamentally terrorist because its predicated on forcing one side to be afraid of the other to the point of submission.

Still, that doesn't mean there's not some real scumbags out there and that "everything goes" either. Morality is slippery that way.
Yes, he was convicted and serving time for the crime of being associated with the Maquis. There's no question he was a criminal. How bad was he, though? Was Paris on a mission to terrorize civilians, or attack legitimate military targets? Did he even accomplish his mission, or was he prevented from doing so by his capture?
I think the writing works better for Locarno, actually. Having been expelled from Starfleet academy, he's ruined his chances of being a Captain and basically feels the Marquis is the place that he can find his own form of redemption/fame and glory. Imagine the irony that it turns out he's rotten at being a freedom fighter, too.
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Old July 3 2013, 07:22 PM   #53
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

Something I remember was an interview once with Robert Duncan McNeill where he describes the differences between Tom Paris and Nick Locarno. He says something like Paris is really a good guy who pretended to be bad while Locarno was a bad guy who pretended to be good.

I am not Spock wrote: View Post
Was that dude on the Enterprise D's bridge, played by Josh Clark, in TNG's Justice, meant to be Joe Carey from Voyager? It could be the same guy.
Since the character in Justice was never named, it could very well be him.
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Old July 3 2013, 07:26 PM   #54
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

Belz... wrote: View Post
Dream wrote: View Post
They didn't want Nick Locarno in "The First Duty" because using him as a main character on VOY would mean Paramount would have to pay "The First Duty" writers every time they used the Locarno character. They didn't want to do that so they created Tom Paris for Robert Duncan to play.
Wouldn't any character they wrote for the series be property of Paramount at the time ? Isn't that standard practice, that the stuff you write for the series isn't yours, like programs you code for a company aren't yours ?
Characters created for the series did become property of Paramount, yes. Therefore, they could use them again without getting the writer's permission. However, the standard Writer's Guild contract for writers who are not regular staff writers specifies that royalties are to be paid to the writer any time one of their characters is used in a subsequent episode. While Ronald D. Moore was a staff writer at the time of "The First Duty," Naren Shankar was not.

So, yes, Paramount could have used the characters without getting the original writer's permission, but they would have had to pay him.

That being said, I believe more has been made out of that aspect than was really the case. I think it was more a case of Locarno not being the exact character they wanted on Voyager, with the royalty issue being a contributing factor.
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Old July 3 2013, 07:37 PM   #55
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

[QUOTE=CoveTom;8331439]
Belz... wrote: View Post
That being said, I believe more has been made out of that aspect than was really the case. I think it was more a case of Locarno not being the exact character they wanted on Voyager, with the royalty issue being a contributing factor.
Locarno may have had similar traits to Paris, but with his backstory, he would be a character who was continually getting into trouble because he felt compelled to buck authority at many points. At least Paris' backstory, the son of an unloving military leader, gave room for him to be redeemed. He might be trusted; Locarno cannot.
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Old July 3 2013, 09:28 PM   #56
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

Pavonis wrote: View Post
Yes, he was convicted and serving time for the crime of being associated with the Maquis. There's no question he was a criminal. How bad was he, though? Was Paris on a mission to terrorize civilians, or attack legitimate military targets? Did he even accomplish his mission, or was he prevented from doing so by his capture?
IIRC, Paris was rather incompetent as a Maquis and got himself captured easily. He was only in it for the bravado, after all. Any real danger and he folded up like a deck chair.
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Old July 3 2013, 09:42 PM   #57
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
Locarno may have had similar traits to Paris, but with his backstory, he would be a character who was continually getting into trouble because he felt compelled to buck authority at many points. At least Paris' backstory, the son of an unloving military leader, gave room for him to be redeemed. He might be trusted; Locarno cannot.
Wouldn't that actually make Locarno a more interesting character, then ?
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Old July 3 2013, 09:57 PM   #58
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

Belz... wrote: View Post
Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
Locarno may have had similar traits to Paris, but with his backstory, he would be a character who was continually getting into trouble because he felt compelled to buck authority at many points. At least Paris' backstory, the son of an unloving military leader, gave room for him to be redeemed. He might be trusted; Locarno cannot.
Wouldn't that actually make Locarno a more interesting character, then ?
Absolutely! However, it would be impossible to make him a bridge officer, due to his demonstrated contempt of authority, expulsion from the academy, and (presumed) involvement in the Maquis (if that was supposed to be his connection to Chakotay). And in spite of a few special episodes, Star Trek generally cares little from those outside the bridge crew/command staff.
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Old July 3 2013, 10:04 PM   #59
R. Star
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

I wouldn't call Locarno an irredeemable character at all. Heck, just compare him to Picard in the First Duty. They are eerily similar, and Picard admits he was brash in his youth and made some sort of similar mistake that nearly got him kicked out.

Locarno saw potential in Wesley and went out of his way to take him under his wing and accept him into Nova squardron when there were older, more experienced classmen wanting men. Whereas, Picard saw potential in Wesley and went out of his way to take him under his wing and made him an acting Ensign on the Enterprise, when there were older, more experienced officers wanting the job.

When confronted with the accident and the coverup, Picard gives Wesley a stirring speech about duty and honor to convince him to do the right thing. Lacarno gives Wesley a stirring speech about loyalty to your friends and the team to convince him to stand with them.

Picard was a young womanizing hotshot in his own words with no sense and without a shred of discipline, durin his youth. Locarno was a young hotshot who wanted to graduate a legend and "win" above all else.

Locarno fell on his sword once the truth came out to save the rest of the team. Picard took Sito(and maybe the other girl, it's a big ship) under his wing to make sure she was given a fair chance and what she did wasn't held against her.

So, there you have it. If you think Locarno is an irredeemable character, then I guess young brash Ensign Picard was too. Heck, after his screw up at the Academy that nearly got him expelled it still took him taking a Nausican knife through the chest to teach him some restraint and sense.
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Old July 3 2013, 10:31 PM   #60
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Re: Why didn't they just keep their characters?

It's possibly worth noting that, in real life, there is seldom only ONE overriding reason behind a particular decision. There can be legal reasons, artistic reasons, personality issues, etc.

As with most choices, you add up the pros and cons and go with what seems to offer the most pluses and the fewest minuses.
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