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Old July 2 2013, 08:34 PM   #31
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

@ Gaith:

No, it's not about just having the idea for floating mountains, it's about being able to establish that Cameron himself publicly said he drew ideas for Pandora from Dean's Yes album art and that --according to Jan's post-- members of the Avatar production staff have said they were given copies of Dean's work to serve as inspiration for designing Pandora as well. That makes him like a de facto concept artist on the film, and thus deserves proper credit and compensation.

If there had simply been floating mountains, giant lopsided trees, and colorful dragons in the film and no public acknowledgement that Dean was a muse for the art staff on the film, then he wouldn't have much a of leg to stand on. But that's apparently not all that happened. If you can acknowledge that he inspired your work, you can give credit where credit is due on the final product. I admire Cameron as an artist, but he does seem to have a recurring issue where this is concerned.
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Old July 3 2013, 03:24 PM   #32
Gaith
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
If there had simply been floating mountains, giant lopsided trees, and colorful dragons in the film and no public acknowledgement that Dean was a muse for the art staff on the film, then he wouldn't have much a of leg to stand on. But that's apparently not all that happened. If you can acknowledge that he inspired your work, you can give credit where credit is due on the final product.
No one is disputing Dean was an inspiration, but that doesn't in of itself equate to theft. Lots of recording artists were no doubt inspired by Cher's overt use of auto-tune on "Believe"; is every subsequent T-Pain obligated to give a cut of their own works if they happen to acknowledge a public inspiration? Hasn't Joss Whedon said that Star Wars and Han Solo were significant influences on Firefly? Does that mean he owes ol' George a Maserati?

Also, the notion of a floating island apparently goes all the way back to Homer. So Dean didn't come up with floating islands, or the tropical look of Pandora's flora, and I have no idea if he even came up with the idea of mixing the two, or if he was "inspired" by other fantasy artists doing similar stuff.

If Dean wants to market himself or his work as an acknowledged "inspiration to Avatar", surely no one could hold that against him. And maybe he should have gotten a shout-out in the credits or some such, but I'm extremely wary of calling even overt inspiration "theft" in a legal sense.
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Old July 3 2013, 03:31 PM   #33
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
members of the Avatar production staff have said they were given copies of Dean's work to serve as inspiration for designing Pandora as well. That makes him like a de facto concept artist on the film, and thus deserves proper credit and compensation.
They were also given stuff for inspiration regarding spaceship design, prop design, wildlife and plant design.

I'm sure they didn't need to compensate NASA and all the wildlife photographers and painters whose pictures they used.

I'm also sure ILM didn't need to compensate all the architects around the world when they used their work as inspiration for all the buildings in Coruscant in Star Wars.

If we start compensating everyone when his work acted as inspiration, we're gonna have a bad time.

Do Orci, Lindelof & Co have to compensate Nicholas Meyer & Co because they were inspired by Spock's death scene to write their own one, and constantly re-use that "The needs of the many" speech and the "I have been and always shall be your friend" phrase, all taken from the script from TWOK? Harlan Ellison would be furious had he written the TWOK script.
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Old July 3 2013, 04:31 PM   #34
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

I sincerely hope some of you, one day, will create something and have someone else rip you off and make oodles of money while you squander what's left of your life in relative obscurity and poverty.

It won't happen, of course, but I still kind of hope it does.

Because then maybe you'd get why he's doing it.

I mean, I certainly know Gaith wouldn't have any problem if a new user showed up with the name Gaïth, used a slightly recolored but otherwise identical picture of Oded Fehr, and became a regular poster. They were just inspired by him, afterall. Right?
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Old July 3 2013, 04:42 PM   #35
Pingfah
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

JarodRussell wrote: View Post

Do Orci, Lindelof & Co have to compensate Nicholas Meyer & Co because they were inspired by Spock's death scene to write their own one, and constantly re-use that "The needs of the many" speech and the "I have been and always shall be your friend" phrase, all taken from the script from TWOK? Harlan Ellison would be furious had he written the TWOK script.
Paramount are perfectly entitled to reuse material from their own franchise. Meyer was a hired gun, he does not own his script for STII. Last I checked, Cameron did not commission any Yes album covers, or secure the rights to use the imagery in future endeavours.

What part of this is so hard for you to understand?
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Old July 3 2013, 06:12 PM   #36
Jan
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

Pingfah wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

Do Orci, Lindelof & Co have to compensate Nicholas Meyer & Co because they were inspired by Spock's death scene to write their own one, and constantly re-use that "The needs of the many" speech and the "I have been and always shall be your friend" phrase, all taken from the script from TWOK? Harlan Ellison would be furious had he written the TWOK script.
Paramount are perfectly entitled to reuse material from their own franchise. Meyer was a hired gun, he does not own his script for STII.
Not to drag this off sideways, but they might very well have had to compensate him, even though he's not credited as a writer for the movie. Hard to tell since much of the dialogue is similar but switched between characters. Similarly, since Khan was a character created by another, there were almost certainly payments to the writers of "Space Seed". It's all part of the WGA contract.

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Old July 3 2013, 06:21 PM   #37
Gaith
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

@JarodRussel: unmarked spoilers for a movie still in theaters. Really?


Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
I mean, I certainly know Gaith wouldn't have any problem if a new user showed up with the name Gaïth, used a slightly recolored but otherwise identical picture of Oded Fehr, and became a regular poster. They were just inspired by him, afterall. Right?
I wouldn't, actually; I'd be flattered. That's why we have the phrase "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." After all, I didn't originate either image in my avatar, nor did I create the (Arabic) name "Gaith".


Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
.... squander what's left of your life in relative obscurity and poverty.
I take it you're implying that Dean leads a life of "relative obscurity and poverty" in that he should be as rich as Cameron, despite the fact that one of them made a few paintings and the other made a massive multimedia franchise that employs thousands of people in several countries. Totally the same thing?
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Old July 3 2013, 06:28 PM   #38
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

Jan wrote: View Post
Pingfah wrote: View Post

Paramount are perfectly entitled to reuse material from their own franchise. Meyer was a hired gun, he does not own his script for STII.
Not to drag this off sideways, but they might very well have had to compensate him, even though he's not credited as a writer for the movie. Hard to tell since much of the dialogue is similar but switched between characters. Similarly, since Khan was a character created by another, there were almost certainly payments to the writers of "Space Seed". It's all part of the WGA contract.

Jan

Perhaps they would have to compensate him in line with union rules, but that does not make it in any way an equivalent situation to what is being tallked about here as JarodRussell is suggesting.

His example is completely inappropriate to the discussion, since Star Trek is Paramount's own entity. They didn't rip anything off anybody, they were entitled to do what they did. If that is indeed what Cameron has done, although I make no comment on that as I wasn't there.
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Old July 3 2013, 06:34 PM   #39
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
members of the Avatar production staff have said they were given copies of Dean's work to serve as inspiration for designing Pandora as well. That makes him like a de facto concept artist on the film, and thus deserves proper credit and compensation.
They were also given stuff for inspiration regarding spaceship design, prop design, wildlife and plant design.

I'm sure they didn't need to compensate NASA and all the wildlife photographers and painters whose pictures they used.

I'm also sure ILM didn't need to compensate all the architects around the world when they used their work as inspiration for all the buildings in Coruscant in Star Wars.

If we start compensating everyone when his work acted as inspiration, we're gonna have a bad time.

Do Orci, Lindelof & Co have to compensate Nicholas Meyer & Co because they were inspired by Spock's death scene to write their own one, and constantly re-use that "The needs of the many" speech and the "I have been and always shall be your friend" phrase, all taken from the script from TWOK? Harlan Ellison would be furious had he written the TWOK script.
Didn't you once take the ridiculous stance that we were advocating copyright infringement here because we told posters not to hotlink images/leech bandwidth and to instead upload the photos to an image host? What a remarkable reversal of opinion you've had since then. It's almost as if nothing you ever say actually has any conviction behind it, and you just say things to play devil's advocate, be argumentative, or try to get a rise out of people.

NASA is a government entity owned by the people and its imagery is free to use by the public at large.

Animals are not copyrighted.

The buildings on Coruscant were designed by Ralph MacQuarrie and later concept artists who were all paid and credited for their work by LucasFilm/20th Century Fox. Can you show a clear connection to where the building designs came from before MacQuarrie drew them, and can you demonstrate Lucas or the designers saying they got the idea for the building designs from somewhere else?

The makers of STiD have every right to draw on other Paramount owned Star Trek properties as inspiration to make the new film, with the possibility of credit being given and royalties being paid for the writers depending on what their contract stipulations were.

Any other ridiculous comparisons?
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Old July 3 2013, 06:54 PM   #40
Mister Fandango
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

Gaith wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
I mean, I certainly know Gaith wouldn't have any problem if a new user showed up with the name Gaïth, used a slightly recolored but otherwise identical picture of Oded Fehr, and became a regular poster. They were just inspired by him, afterall. Right?
I wouldn't, actually; I'd be flattered. That's why we have the phrase "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." After all, I didn't originate either image in my avatar, nor did I create the (Arabic) name "Gaith".
Yeah, I'm sure you would.

Especially if someone came around, saw one of your ideas, and offered to buy it for a few million dollars. Except they asked Gaïth instead, because he said something similar in a much later post. Or more appropriate to the comparison, if Gaïth started posting all kinds of vulgar and disgusting things on the forum and instead Gaith was permanently banned in his stead. It's okay though, still just a flattering inspiration, after all.

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
.... squander what's left of your life in relative obscurity and poverty.
I take it you're implying that Dean leads a life of "relative obscurity and poverty" in that he should be as rich as Cameron, despite the fact that one of them made a few paintings and the other made a massive multimedia franchise that employs thousands of people in several countries. Totally the same thing?
If he did it by stealing from him and others, as he often does, then yes.
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Old July 3 2013, 07:13 PM   #41
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Didn't you once take the ridiculous stance that we were advocating copyright infringement here because we told posters not to hotlink images/leech bandwidth and to instead upload the photos to an image host?
And that's exactly the case and why Google.com got into problems with its image search. Thumbnails are okay, because they are under fair use. You can't take away an image from someone else and store it on your own server. That is indeed copyright infringement. Inline Linking (or Hotlinking) is not a violation of copyright. That's how it is, you can disagree with it all you want, but in that case you are definitely wrong. Read up Perfect 10, Inc. vs Google Inc.


I also advocated a different copyright law where everyone gets compensated for a reuse of his work. Let's say a Trek movie gets made out one of Greg Cox' Trek tie in novels. He should be compensated and credited as a writer if they do, even though he was just "a hired gun". If you create a 3D model of the TMP Enterprise in your spare time, upload it to the Interblag, and ILM downloads it and uses it in their films, you should be compensated for that since you did the work.

But if the novel only serves as inspiration for something, he doesn't need to be compensated. If something justs ends up being used in a big collage of inspirational photographs, paintings and drawings during PRE PRODUCTION to create new artwork, then there is no need for compensation.

NASA is a government entity owned by the people and its imagery is free to use by the public at large.
So the government voluntarily disclaims any need for compensation. Everyone could do the same if they chose to do so, including guys like Roger Dean. If NASA was a private organization that insisted on getting compensated for the use of their photographs and imagery, what then? So that argument is beside the point.

Animals are not copyrighted.
But photographs, drawings and paintings made of animals are.
What if you take a painting of an animal for inspiration out of a book? Someone painted it, the publisher released it, surely the painter or publisher needs to be compensated because you used his book as inspiration for your billion dollar box office smash hit. See where I'm getting at? It's not ridiculous at all.

The buildings on Coruscant were designed by Ralph MacQuarrie and later concept artists who were all paid and credited for their work by LucasFilm/20th Century Fox. Can you show a clear connection to where the building designs came from before MacQuarrie drew them, and can you demonstrate Lucas or the designers saying they got the idea for the building designs from somewhere else?
McQuarrie surely collected a bunch of photographs, drawings, blueprints of buildings before he did all his concept art sketches. Every artist has an archive of inspirational work made by others.
So yes, certainly you can make that connection.
And I do think you can spot a couple of real world buildings in Coruscant in some scenes, like Burj Dubai. Did they credit and compensate the architect?



What a remarkable reversal of opinion you've had since then.
Any other ridiculous comparisons?
Want to get personal again? Do you have anger management problems? You ALWAYS do that when you argue with people. Stop that.
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Old July 3 2013, 07:28 PM   #42
Ar-Pharazon
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

Jan wrote: View Post
Pingfah wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

Do Orci, Lindelof & Co have to compensate Nicholas Meyer & Co because they were inspired by Spock's death scene to write their own one, and constantly re-use that "The needs of the many" speech and the "I have been and always shall be your friend" phrase, all taken from the script from TWOK? Harlan Ellison would be furious had he written the TWOK script.
Paramount are perfectly entitled to reuse material from their own franchise. Meyer was a hired gun, he does not own his script for STII.
Not to drag this off sideways, but they might very well have had to compensate him, even though he's not credited as a writer for the movie. Hard to tell since much of the dialogue is similar but switched between characters. Similarly, since Khan was a character created by another, there were almost certainly payments to the writers of "Space Seed". It's all part of the WGA contract.

Jan
Meyer likely falls under that thing where if someone "creates" while working for the company, that creation is automatically property of the company.

Especially if he signed something to that effect.
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Old July 3 2013, 07:58 PM   #43
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Especially if someone came around, saw one of your ideas, and offered to buy it for a few million dollars.
Mister. How many times must we go over this? Ideas can't be bought, sold, or copyrighted.


Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
Or more appropriate to the comparison, if Gaïth started posting all kinds of vulgar and disgusting things on the forum and instead Gaith was permanently banned in his stead.
How on Earth is that "more appropriate to the comparison"? Did I miss the Avatar scene in which Neytiri said that that Company employee Rodger Deen (note the subtly different name) was a sodomizer of six-legged-pigs?
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Old July 3 2013, 08:10 PM   #44
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
But if the novel only serves as inspiration for something, he doesn't need to be compensated. If something justs ends up being used in a big collage of inspirational photographs, paintings and drawings during PRE PRODUCTION to create new artwork, then there is no need for compensation.
We're not talking about words on the page or musical notes where it's easier to show direct plagiarism, we're talking about design, where it's much more subtle and difficult to prove.

If it were as simple as two different artists having the idea for floating mountains spontaneously (which has happened multiple times), that wouldn't be sufficient to demand credit and compensation. But if you can show a consistent similarity in design style, from the floating mountains, the city-sized leaning trees, the colorful dragons being ridden as beasts of burden, and the arching rocks (all of which Dean can show), and you can establish through direct quotes from Cameron and the production designers that they got the ideas from your works (which apparently he can show too), than how is that any different from you essentially serving as a concept artist on the film without receiving any credit or compensation?

So the government voluntarily disclaims any need for compensation. Everyone could do the same if they chose to do so, including guys like Roger Dean.
No shit. He doesn't choose to do so, which is wholly his right.

If NASA was a private organization that insisted on getting compensated for the use of their photographs and imagery, what then? So that argument is beside the point.
It was YOUR argument. If it's besides the point, don't make it.

If NASA was a private organization, than yeah, you'd have to pay them for the rights to use their imagery in a film. Pardon the pun, but this is not rocket science.

If it was something like basing a CGI galaxy in a movie off of a picture of a real galaxy they took, then no, that wouldn't count, because you can't copyright the appearance of real galaxies.

But photographs, drawings and paintings made of animals are.
What if you take a painting of an animal for inspiration out of a book? Someone painted it, the publisher released it, surely the painter or publisher needs to be compensated because you used his book as inspiration for your billion dollar box office smash hit. See where I'm getting at? It's not ridiculous at all.
Yes, it's completely ridiculous, because you can't copyright a gazelle that just looks like a normal gazelle. But if there was something unique about the way you depicted the gazelle, and if that design style was repeated throughout your works, and if another artist borrowed that specific design style repeatedly, and if that artist publicly acknowledged that he borrowed your designs, then yes, you might very well be qualified to receive a credit and compensation.

McQuarrie surely collected a bunch of photographs, drawings, blueprints of buildings before he did all his concept art sketches. Every artist has an archive of inspirational work made by others.
So yes, certainly you can make that connection.
And I do think you can spot a couple of real world buildings in Coruscant in some scenes, like Burj Dubai. Did they credit and compensate the architect?
You think they ripped off the design of a building that didn't even begin construction until five of the six Star Wars movies were already released and the sixth was already well into filming and way past the concept art stage? Did Ralph MacQuarrie time travel into the future from when he designed Coruscant in the late 70s? Did the later artists time jump from the mid to late-90s when they added Coruscant to RoTJ and showed it extensively in The Phantom Menace?

Having a really tall pointy building doesn't mean it was based on Burj Khalifa, especially since really tall pointy buildings were in MacQuarrie's art from way back in the late 70s. Now, if you could show that the concept artists took a whole series of building designs from the same architectural firm with no compelling reason to use them (for instance, you can't claim infringement if someone uses the Empire State Building in a CGI depiction of New York), and then you had documented proof from interviews and publications where they acknowledged using them, you could make a case for receiving credit and compensation.

Want to get personal again? Do you have anger management problems? You ALWAYS do that when you argue with people.
Just people who I feel are jerking myself and others around and purposely missing the point. I'm not a big fan of that.
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Old July 3 2013, 09:29 PM   #45
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Re: Roger Dean sues over movie Avatar

2:41
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v8hwx2xHnM

And no, I didn't have anything to do with them.
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