RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,453
Posts: 5,508,515
Members: 25,132
Currently online: 458
Newest member: Commander Balok

TrekToday headlines

TV Alert: Pine On Tonight Show
By: T'Bonz on Dec 22

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 1 2013, 10:41 PM   #31
Ln X
Fleet Captain
 
Ln X's Avatar
 
Location: The great gig in the sky
Re: What's your opinion of Gul Dukat?

dub wrote: View Post
A lot of people say Dukat was a great character until he became one-dimensional.

From my perspective, he was a complex character from beginning to end who had the most dramatic arc of all. He started as a guy who was in love with himself, confident in his choices and felt just fine in his own skin. At least that's how it appeared. As the series progressed, he became a man who had lost power, lost any respect he had from his fellow Cardassians, and didn't get any "thanks" from the Bajoran people for his (in his view) kinder and gentler leadership during the occupation (I think he actually expected the Bajorans to be thankful in retrospect). Things slowly fell apart for him, and then his daughter's death drove him to madness. He never escaped his madness. Toward the end, he was truly a madman who still longed for power, still loved himself and still sought the admiration of the Bajoran people. This led him to the pah wraith cult, which gave him the power he desired, and for a time the admiration of a select few Bajorans. And then there was Sisko, who still had the office Dukat once proudly occupied. Dukat actually respected Sisko, but he did not get Sisko's respect in return, and I believe that's why he hated him so much. The writers managed to keep me sympathetic toward Gul Dukat for most of the series, even though I was often disappointed in his choices. At the very end, he was a power-hungry madman who had finally been abandoned by everyone he knew, he had no hope of gaining anyone's admiration and he knew it, and was being controlled by creatures who were equally mad = a scary combination. Yes, madmen are often one-dimensional in their actions. But the series showed us this man's very complex, very deep path to madness. The arc itself was fascinating, scary and at times uncomfortable to watch. Nothing simple about it. A great character all the way through if you ask me.
This, Dukat went on a journey no other villain went on before. For me the character's peak was Waltz, were at last Dukat comes out of his delusion and admits what we all knew and suspected beforehand.

Dukat went from one nasty conniving man whom you crossed at your own peril, to eventually (right at the end) pure evil. I say pure evil because I think it's highly symbolic that the Pah Wraiths removed Dukat's disguise revealing his true form. It's a point where Dukat can't even disguise, in any possible way, his evil any more (something which happened to Sauron in Lord of the Rings) and his journey is finally complete.

I guess the religious and Biblical connotations freaked out many people and that's why they had to bash season 7 Dukat, but being spiritual myself I thought it was a great move where this character went.

The best part of this character arc is how Dukat threw away his ocassional chances of redemption, like the alcoholic who just can't keep away from the bottle, and more than anything else it was almost depressing. I say almost because Dukat deserved almost everything that afflicted him, save the death of his daughter. Ziyal was possibly Dukat's last chance for repentance.
__________________
Star Trek: The Approaching Shadow...

Caption contest: DS9
Ln X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 2 2013, 03:50 AM   #32
bountifulboxesjeg
Vice Admiral
 
bountifulboxesjeg's Avatar
 
Location: bbjeg
Re: What's your opinion of Gul Dukat?

In TNG's "The Wounded", though it's a different Cardassian played by the same actor as Dukat, the episode sums up what I think of Cardassians. From the start they were devious with an ulterior motive.
bountifulboxesjeg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 2 2013, 04:31 AM   #33
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: What's your opinion of Gul Dukat?

bbjeg wrote: View Post
In TNG's "The Wounded", though it's a different Cardassian played by the same actor as Dukat, the episode sums up what I think of Cardassians. From the start they were devious with an ulterior motive.
That's an awfully bigoted statement. There are plenty of honest and honorable Cardassians, too -- not the least of whom would be Gul Macet, Marc Alaimo's character in "The Wounded," who clearly realized that he had a lot in common with and respected the Federates aboard the Enterprise, and who was clearly uncomfortable with his government's covert re-arming program.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 2 2013, 04:16 PM   #34
Data girl
Ensign
 
Re: What's your opinion of Gul Dukat?

All I have to say is he had the charm and looks. (I never thought I would thought I would find an alien hot). He must be have done something right if we are still talking about him.
Data girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 2 2013, 08:00 PM   #35
Dale Sams
Fleet Captain
 
Dale Sams's Avatar
 
Re: What's your opinion of Gul Dukat?

Sci wrote: View Post
Charles Phipps wrote: View Post
I'm inclined to think Dukat would have replaced the Female Changeling with a hologram at some point.
Are we talking about Gul Dukat, or Batman?
There should be a law against linking to TV Tropes. At the least I should direct a visit from temporal agents upon you for sucking me into a black hole of time.
Dale Sams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 2 2013, 09:34 PM   #36
Dale Sams
Fleet Captain
 
Dale Sams's Avatar
 
Re: What's your opinion of Gul Dukat?

So I just watched "Waltz" for the first time...

1) Are you s***ting me? What are you Sisko, a 50's damsel in distress? He knocks out his opponent and he doesn't take the phaser??

2) All that crap at the end is so much spoon-fed nonsense. First, Dukat lies all the time, especially to himself. Second, HE IS INSANE. I'm supposed to believe all the stuff about him being a 'benevolent dictator' is BS he tells himself, BUT the racist, evil rantings are the truth? No. He's insane. I don't disbelieve it but nor do I take it at face-value.

3) and finally, "I never believed true evil existed until now".....What?? Based on what? HE'S CRAZY. Now you may believe that he fully intends to do whatever he can to wipe out Bajor, (And who drove him to that conclusion?? Way to break it hero) but that makes him crazy, not evil.

Good job writers....not. But it is a great episode right up until the last second.
Dale Sams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 2 2013, 11:26 PM   #37
Mirror Kira
Cadet
 
Location: Terok Nor
Re: What's your opinion of Gul Dukat?

I think Dukat was one of the more compelling villains in the franchise, and certainly the most complex. He was an egomaniac who wanted devotion from his subjects (including Ziyal) and respect from those he envied. But, he never received either. Unlike some other members, I had no problem with his seventh season character arc. When he failed to defeat Sisko the Starfleet Captain, it was inevitable that he would find a way to attack Sisko the Emissary. Watching him slither around the despicable Winn Adami and eventually trap her in his coils was merely an added bonus.
Mirror Kira is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 2 2013, 11:28 PM   #38
Charles Phipps
Commander
 
Charles Phipps's Avatar
 
Re: What's your opinion of Gul Dukat?


3) and finally, "I never believed true evil existed until now".....What?? Based on what? HE'S CRAZY. Now you may believe that he fully intends to do whatever he can to wipe out Bajor, (And who drove him to that conclusion?? Way to break it hero) but that makes him crazy, not evil.
It's a rare kind of mental illness which diminishes capacity. His crazy came after his atrocities, too.
__________________
Check out the United Federation of Charles:
http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
Charles Phipps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 3 2013, 01:29 AM   #39
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: What's your opinion of Gul Dukat?

Yeah sorry. Being crazy doesn't give you a pass on being evil. The crazy guy that thinks the birds talk to him usually isn't hurting anyone. Good and evil are based on what you do.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 3 2013, 04:22 AM   #40
bountifulboxesjeg
Vice Admiral
 
bountifulboxesjeg's Avatar
 
Location: bbjeg
Re: What's your opinion of Gul Dukat?

Sci wrote: View Post
bbjeg wrote: View Post
In TNG's "The Wounded", though it's a different Cardassian played by the same actor as Dukat, the episode sums up what I think of Cardassians. From the start they were devious with an ulterior motive.
That's an awfully bigoted statement. There are plenty of honest and honorable Cardassians, too -- not the least of whom would be Gul Macet, Marc Alaimo's character in "The Wounded," who clearly realized that he had a lot in common with and respected the Federates aboard the Enterprise, and who was clearly uncomfortable with his government's covert re-arming program.
I didn't mean to come off as prejudice but with every Star Trek race, there is a fundamental distinction between each, like Klingon honor and Vulcan logic. When it comes to Cardassians, I generally think of the word suspicion. From the beginning, with Picard warning Gul Macet at the end of that episode that he knew of the high-powered subspace field that shielded the cardassian cargo ship from scans (where Picard knew they would be warring if he boarded the ship due to what's on it), to the back-stab of the federation, and later double back-stab of the Dominion. They had their reasons of course, albeit a bit xenophobic. There were good Cardassians but history would paint them as ruthless from the Setlik III massacre, to the Occupation of Bajor. Even in debates, they focus on avoiding saying incriminating statements.
bountifulboxesjeg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 3 2013, 04:40 AM   #41
Dale Sams
Fleet Captain
 
Dale Sams's Avatar
 
Re: What's your opinion of Gul Dukat?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Yeah sorry. Being crazy doesn't give you a pass on being evil. The crazy guy that thinks the birds talk to him usually isn't hurting anyone. Good and evil are based on what you do.
And what he did exactly is never resolved, all we have are his insane rantings. Sisko hasn't learned anything new except for everything Gul Crazypants admitted too after being led by the nose in that direction by Sisko. So what makes Dukat 'pure evil' now, and not before the episode?
Dale Sams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 3 2013, 06:03 AM   #42
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: What's your opinion of Gul Dukat?

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Yeah sorry. Being crazy doesn't give you a pass on being evil. The crazy guy that thinks the birds talk to him usually isn't hurting anyone. Good and evil are based on what you do.
And what he did exactly is never resolved, all we have are his insane rantings. Sisko hasn't learned anything new except for everything Gul Crazypants admitted too after being led by the nose in that direction by Sisko. So what makes Dukat 'pure evil' now, and not before the episode?
Come on, you watched DS9... what did he do? Despite all his rantings about being "unappreciated" and "gentler" he was the tyrant who oversaw the occupation of an entire world, that employed slave labor working people to death, and routinely retaliated against the civilian populace when the resistance had the nerve to fight back.

He basically destroyed a child's life(Rugal) just to discredit a political enemy, not to mention his adoptive and biological families.

He was willing to execute his daughter just to maintain his position. And don't tell me he spared her for noble reasons, Kira had to threaten him to do it and even then I think it just fed his need to be admired by her and Ziyal.

Not to mention the whole... negotiating Cardassia's entry into the Dominion and attempting to launch an attack that would destroy all of Bajor and his daughter who he disowned because she "betrayed" him.

Oh yeah, then starting the largest conventional war in Trek's history after that failed in textbook revanchist style.

If you only want to go after his "breakdown" okay... plenty of material there too. Letting a pagh-wraith occupy your body to destroy the Prophets and incidentally murder Jadzia qualifies. Also making a call to mock Kira about sleeping with her mom was deliberately cruel and malicious.

Then starts a whole religion with is rooted on wanting to be admired and loved by Bajorans. Oh and tries to get them all to commit suicide when they start doubting him because he sleeps with one of his married followers.

Oh and then there was that little plan to team up with Kai Winn to release the pagh-wraiths who would then kill everyone they don't like.

You can argue if he's crazy or not, it doesn't matter. He was evil. Being crazy doesn't excuse that.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 3 2013, 02:53 PM   #43
Dale Sams
Fleet Captain
 
Dale Sams's Avatar
 
Re: What's your opinion of Gul Dukat?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Yeah sorry. Being crazy doesn't give you a pass on being evil. The crazy guy that thinks the birds talk to him usually isn't hurting anyone. Good and evil are based on what you do.
And what he did exactly is never resolved, all we have are his insane rantings. Sisko hasn't learned anything new except for everything Gul Crazypants admitted too after being led by the nose in that direction by Sisko. So what makes Dukat 'pure evil' now, and not before the episode?
Come on, you watched DS9... what did he do? Despite all his rantings about being "unappreciated" and "gentler" he was the tyrant who oversaw the occupation of an entire world, that employed slave labor working people to death, and routinely retaliated against the civilian populace when the resistance had the nerve to fight back.

He basically destroyed a child's life(Rugal) just to discredit a political enemy, not to mention his adoptive and biological families.

He was willing to execute his daughter just to maintain his position. And don't tell me he spared her for noble reasons, Kira had to threaten him to do it and even then I think it just fed his need to be admired by her and Ziyal.

Not to mention the whole... negotiating Cardassia's entry into the Dominion and attempting to launch an attack that would destroy all of Bajor and his daughter who he disowned because she "betrayed" him.

Oh yeah, then starting the largest conventional war in Trek's history after that failed in textbook revanchist style.

If you only want to go after his "breakdown" okay... plenty of material there too. Letting a pagh-wraith occupy your body to destroy the Prophets and incidentally murder Jadzia qualifies. Also making a call to mock Kira about sleeping with her mom was deliberately cruel and malicious.

Then starts a whole religion with is rooted on wanting to be admired and loved by Bajorans. Oh and tries to get them all to commit suicide when they start doubting him because he sleeps with one of his married followers.

Oh and then there was that little plan to team up with Kai Winn to release the pagh-wraiths who would then kill everyone they don't like.

You can argue if he's crazy or not, it doesn't matter. He was evil. Being crazy doesn't excuse that.
I mean OTHER than that.
Dale Sams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 3 2013, 04:34 PM   #44
RXTT
Lieutenant
 
RXTT's Avatar
 
Location: Gamma Quadrant
Re: What's your opinion of Gul Dukat?

The reason I love Gul Dukat as an villain, and DS9 as a story, is that every single character changes. There are no static characters.

Gul Dukat over the series run became my favorite villain in all of television. he realistically went from a pompous bureaucrat to a sadistic egomaniac to a megalomaniacal despot to straight up EVIL incarnate. In all these aspects he felt justified in himself and his own actions and decisions and was willing to explain why.

That to me is so much more interesting than a 2-dimensional villain like the Borg. Once you know the basic Borg qualities, you know everything about them, and their motivations. That is boring.

Gul Dukat also came to see The Sisko not only as his antithesis, but also as his equal, in a weird, warped way. He actually wished for Sisko's understanding, for Sisko to admit that they were not dissimilar, which is insane of course, but Dukat slowly sank into insanity!
__________________
Niner 4 Life!

RXTT.NET
RXTT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 3 2013, 05:51 PM   #45
bountifulboxesjeg
Vice Admiral
 
bountifulboxesjeg's Avatar
 
Location: bbjeg
Re: What's your opinion of Gul Dukat?

I think R. Star nailed it petty good there. Dukat is evil.
RXTT wrote: View Post
That to me is so much more interesting than a 2-dimensional villain like the Borg. Once you know the basic Borg qualities, you know everything about them, and their motivations. That is boring.
I always considered the Borg as a perfect use of a 2D character. There more of a force as opposed to a species, a unrelenting dispassionate force. When it comes to pure evil, Dukat has nothing on the Borg.

>
bountifulboxesjeg is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:34 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.