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Old July 2 2013, 06:26 PM   #346
GSchnitzer
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine

throwback wrote: View Post
I have two observations and/or questions.

1.) In this shot from "Where No Man Has Gone Before" (http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...eforehd271.jpg), the play of light and shadows make me think there was a lamp or lamps behind the wall against which the bed was set.
2.) On the biobed monitor, there is the "Recorder" indicator which always appeared in the on position. How did someone turn off this recorder?
Yes, there are lights behind that wall, up by the over-bed monitor. Donny appears to be using he purplish light from the second season (like "Journey to Babel") instead of the plain white light from he first season (like "Where No Man...").

I think the "activate recorder function" is probably contolled from the same switch over on the side of the monitor: the switch that Dr. Mark Piper uses while checking out Gary Mitchell, is amazed that Gary's readings aren't off slightly to some degree or another, and performs a test on the monitor. (You can see the "Test" talkback being illuminated, and the little triangular measurement indicators all move to absolute mid-line center during the test. The "Test" light goes off and the indicators all go back to normal fluctuate-y positions when he turns the test function off. Presumably the Record function is over at that same switch--maybe a three way toggle.)
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Old July 2 2013, 06:51 PM   #347
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine

Accurate or not, I gotta at those spray bottles in the sickbay. Does any member of the crew need watering?
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Old July 2 2013, 07:01 PM   #348
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine

Remember, during the years when TOS was filmed, spray bottles of this type were relatively new and considered a pretty nifty idea (to butcher a Douglas Adams quote).

(Similar situation on Doctor Who and "bubble wrap". When they recorded the 'Ark in Space", bubble wrap had only recently hit the market, so not everyone and their hamster had seen it yet. Thus it was considered a clever idea to wrap an actor's hand in the stuff, tint it green and pretend it was alien tissue oveertaking some poor sod's body. Back then it had something of a "WOW!" factor.)

Sincerely,

Bill
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Old July 2 2013, 07:17 PM   #349
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
The only thing I might do differently is to swap out that new blinky computer display you've added and replace it with the display of the antique surgical tools from "Space Seed." (I realize that it probably actually lived where that third bed now is, but I think more people will be saying "Ooo, lets look at all those surgical inststruments" more than they will be saying "Ooooo, let's look at yet another blinky computer display."
Frankly, I never understood the practical purpose of the antique surgical tools in "Space Seed". Reverse psychology? ("Hey, if you think you got pain, imagine the pain those tools would have inflicted on you a couple of centuries ago!"), McCoy's subtle sadism to scare this patients with ancient knifes (or tridents)?

For one, I think it's a very good thing he relocated his display of horrors onto the wall of the waiting booth in his office (apparently someone told him it's a better place ).

Second, this is the diagnostic display which shows additional biometric functions the medical monitor does not. McCoy took readings from this kind of panel in "The Corbomite Maneuver" and "Charlie X". You may argue that it only gets used when someone is doing "push-ups" on the exercise table (not there in the bedroom), but IMHO it's a better choice than those tools of horror. Alternately a nice Mike Minor painting with beautiful alien landscapes or a viewscreen (so you don't miss theatre performances aboard the ship and stuff like that) would seem to be suitable candidates.

@ Donny

Clever idea to put the Season One intercom speaker onto the doorframe. We never saw this doorframe part in Season Three.

Of course, I have to wonder where this yellow back door is supposed to led us. If I'm not mistaken you illustrated the area in a same or similar fashion in your older TOS rendering approach.

Bob
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Old July 2 2013, 07:29 PM   #350
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine

IIRC, there was another thread, maybe a year ago, about trying to ascribe meanings behind the different door colors. I don't know if the colors were consistent enough to have meaning, or if they were just randomly placed, with red simply being the most common for turbolifts. If there was a planned commonality back then, we could probably infer what yellow doors represent to determine what that could be behind that door based on the context of a medical area.
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Old July 2 2013, 07:33 PM   #351
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine

Not to hijack Donny's thread, but here's a bit more information for those who haven't ventured over o the Star Trek Phase II web site:

There is a prop (well, a series of props) that is used often in SIck Bay. Generally they are just set decorations in the background. But once in a while they actually get used. They are boring ol' trigger sprayers--which actualy were invented in the early '60s--so they were cutting edge at the time.
We saw them quite a few times. Here they are, in order:

"The Enemy Within" (next to Dr. McCoy):


"The Enemy Within" (in McCoy's supply cabinet):


"The Man Trap" (next to Lieutenant Sulu):


...and a couple more way over on the back wall:


"The Naked Time:"


"Charlie X" (in McCoy's cabinet):


"Dagger of the Mind" (in McCoy's cabinet):


"The Conscience of the King" (in McCoy's cabinet):


...and when Lenore Karidian places some Tetralubisol in Lieutenant Kevin Reilly's milk (in probably the second best view we get of one of these things):


"The Alternative Factor" (in McCoy's cabinet):


"Space Seed" (carried by a nurse on a surgical tray):


...and in McCoy's cabinet, here:


...and here:


"Operation--Annihilate!" (during the operation on Mister Spock's back):


...and on the credenza in the Sick Bay Ward Room:


...and again:


"Mirror, Mirror:"

"The Deadly Years" (carried on a surgical tray):


...and over by Elaine Johnson's bed:


"Journey to Babel" (on the credenza):


...and on a small table on the back wall in the Sick Bay Exam Room:


"A Private Little War" (in probably the best shot):

"The Immunity Syndrome" (by the far bed):


"By Any Other Name" (hard to see--over on the instrument stand):


"Return to Tomorrow" (on the back counter in the Lab behind Nurse Chapel):


"Elaan of Troyius" (in their final appearance--and one and only appearance in the third season):


So, they aren't much to look at, but here are some Trek-appropriate trigger spray bottles that I picked up. I picked up about twenty of them, I think. Here are three--in "grape," "cherry,"and "orange.:
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Old July 2 2013, 08:27 PM   #352
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
The only thing I might do differently is to swap out that new blinky computer display you've added and replace it with the display of the antique surgical tools from "Space Seed." (I realize that it probably actually lived where that third bed now is, but I think more people will be saying "Ooo, lets look at all those surgical inststruments" more than they will be saying "Ooooo, let's look at yet another blinky computer display."
Frankly, I never understood the practical purpose of the antique surgical tools in "Space Seed". Reverse psychology? ("Hey, if you think you got pain, imagine the pain those tools would have inflicted on you a couple of centuries ago!"), McCoy's subtle sadism to scare this patients with ancient knifes (or tridents)?

For one, I think it's a very good thing he relocated his display of horrors onto the wall of the waiting booth in his office (apparently someone told him it's a better place ).

Second, this is the diagnostic display which shows additional biometric functions the medical monitor does not. McCoy took readings from this kind of panel in "The Corbomite Maneuver" and "Charlie X". You may argue that it only gets used when someone is doing "push-ups" on the exercise table (not there in the bedroom), but IMHO it's a better choice than those tools of horror. Alternately a nice Mike Minor painting with beautiful alien landscapes or a viewscreen (so you don't miss theatre performances aboard the ship and stuff like that) would seem to be suitable candidates.

@ Donny

Clever idea to put the Season One intercom speaker onto the doorframe. We never saw this doorframe part in Season Three.

Of course, I have to wonder where this yellow back door is supposed to led us. If I'm not mistaken you illustrated the area in a same or similar fashion in your older TOS rendering approach.

Bob
I think the practical purpose of these set decorations was to provide Khan some weapons that were naively unattended in the 23rd century with which he could threaten McCoy. Beyond this actual practical purpose, McCoy is probably just a bit of a collector. I don't see the practical purpose, for that matter, of having a bunch of skulls scattered throughout Sick Bay--in the glass cabinet and, later, on the shelves of his office--or the books and brain model he has in his cabin. (Haven't they invented e-book readers in the 23rd century yet?) Actually, I think a lot of physicians collect and display old medical instrumentation--my father-in-law the nephrologist for example.

I don't think McCoy hid the antique display away post-Khan. But he was probably smart enough to put them safely under unbreakable glass. I guess they might look kind of creepy to some. To me they just look like a bunch of medical instruments. But I don't know if I would put them in a tight booth right next to people who are waiting for some kind of medical service.

From "Space Seed:"



For those who are interested:

1. Simpson-Braun Obstetrical Forceps (Left Half)
2. Simpson-Braun Obstetrical Forceps (Right Half)
3. Hudson Brace (Cloward Brand)
4. Israel Retractor (Four Prongs, Blunt)
5. Mathieu Needle Holder
6. Welch-Allyn Otoscope
7. Langenbeck retractor 3/8" x 1 1/4" blade
8. Unknown (still researching--but I'll find it eventually)
9. Bistoury Knife
10. Scalpel with #23 Blade
11. Liston Amputation Knife

In the end, I think it makes more sense to show users of this video game something that's interesting and with which they are familiar, rather than just an Exercise Machine computer display when there is simply an identical display over in the room next door that they can look at--even if there is some justification that we can concoct to have one of these readouts in the Sixck Bay Ward Room without its associated Exercise Machine. I wouldn't be too concerned with how these antiques will make the fictional patients of the fictional Dr. McCoy's feel when they see these old instruments hanging on the walls of the fictional Sick Bay Ward Room.

Edit: I think patients probably watch all the numerous ship's theater performances on their bedside swing-arm monitors, rather than have to climb out of bed and hobble over to watch it on a monitor in the corner of the room. But maybe I'm overthinking it.
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Old July 2 2013, 11:13 PM   #353
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine

@137th Gebirg

Yes, we tried to decipher a color code of the doors but couldn't arrive at a satisfactory conclusion. In "The Naked Time" turbo lift doors were blue in apparently three diferent locations but other than that they are usually red, just as those doors that are apparently bulkheads.

Yellow could literally mean anything. From the Season One engine room to the door of the laboratory to the Season Two / Three multi-purpose room (sometimes red) etc.

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
I think the practical purpose of these set decorations was to provide Khan some weapons that were naively unattended in the 23rd century with which he could threaten McCoy.
Yes, undoubtedly.

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
In the end, I think it makes more sense to show users of this video game something that's interesting and with which they are familiar.
Well, the users can examine the antique surgical tools in McCoy's expanded collection in his office, can't they?

Besides, I could also argue that instead of the antique tools I'd expect to see the mirror Miss Chapel used to fix her hair in "The Naked Time" (because according to my examinations it's the same Medical Ward 4 from Season One).

You are talking about a prop from the Season One sickbay set which, IMHO, is totally out of place here because we're looking at the medical ward of Season Two plus Three and a different one (out of the four that must exist) than seen in the first season.

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
I think patients probably watch all the numerous ship's theater performances on their bedside swing-arm monitors, rather than have to climb out of bed and hobble over to watch it on a monitor in the corner of the room.
But that's exactly the problem with the third bed, it does not have any swing-arm monitor.

And now I realize I have to pester Donny with question: Why is there a wall in such close proximity to the third bed which apparently doesn't exist if we look at the various "third bed footage"?

Bob
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Old July 2 2013, 11:52 PM   #354
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
@137th Gebirg

Yes, we tried to decipher a color code of the doors but couldn't arrive at a satisfactory conclusion. In "The Naked Time" turbo lift doors were blue in apparently three diferent locations but other than that they are usually red, just as those doors that are apparently bulkheads.

Yellow could literally mean anything. From the Season One engine room to the door of the laboratory to the Season Two / Three multi-purpose room (sometimes red) etc.

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
I think the practical purpose of these set decorations was to provide Khan some weapons that were naively unattended in the 23rd century with which he could threaten McCoy.
Yes, undoubtedly.

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
In the end, I think it makes more sense to show users of this video game something that's interesting and with which they are familiar.
Well, the users can examine the antique surgical tools in McCoy's expanded collection in his office, can't they?

Besides, I could also argue that instead of the antique tools I'd expect to see the mirror Miss Chapel used to fix her hair in "The Naked Time" (because according to my examinations it's the same Medical Ward 4 from Season One).

You are talking about a prop from the Season One sickbay set which, IMHO, is totally out of place here because we're looking at the medical ward of Season Two plus Three and a different one (out of the four that must exist) than seen in the first season.

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
I think patients probably watch all the numerous ship's theater performances on their bedside swing-arm monitors, rather than have to climb out of bed and hobble over to watch it on a monitor in the corner of the room.
But that's exactly the problem with the third bed, it does not have any swing-arm monitor.

And now I realize I have to pester Donny with question: Why is there a wall in such close proximity to the third bed which apparently doesn't exist if we look at the various "third bed footage"?

Bob

Well, the second bed doesn't have a bedside swing-arm monitor, either, in "Return to Tomorrow." They had pull it off the set to make room for Thalassa's receptacle. Hmmm: maybe this whole episode takes place in yet another Sick Bay!

This sounds sort of like taking a photograph of my living room, buying a new dining room table, coming back six months later, taking another photograph, and then showing the Before and After pictures to a friend. "Ah, I see that you built a new addition onto your house, Greg! It looks like you have had a totally new and additional iving room built, one very similar to the other one--but one with a different dining room set. That can be the only possible explanation!" I don't know why every permutation of the sets must co-exist contemporaneously. "Look, Scotty's Bridge station has no hooded viewer in the first season, but then it has one in the second and third seasons! There must be two bridges! Yes--an Emergency Bridge! That must be it!"

Come to think of it, all the bedside swing-arm monitors disappeared from the Sick Bay Ward Room after the third season's second episode. But I don't know if I would advocate removing them from Donny's stuff. That would make his third season-ish layout for the room just a little less interesting and slightly more bleak. It looks like he went the rout of adding one to the third bed to make it consistent with the other two.

It must have posed quite a challenge to the engineers on board theship to figure out how to mount a swing-arm monitor next to that third patient bed. They could have just left it alone, but you know engineers: they love to change things.
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Old July 3 2013, 12:30 AM   #355
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Of course, I have to wonder where this yellow back door is supposed to led us. If I'm not mistaken you illustrated the area in a same or similar fashion in your older TOS rendering approach.
Yes, this is very similar to my earlier approach in my earlier attempt at this project with the Quake III engine. Good memory!

Robert Comsol wrote:
And now I realize I have to pester Donny with question: Why is there a wall in such close proximity to the third bed which apparently doesn't exist if we look at the various "third bed footage"?
Does the bridge module next to Spock's science station not exist because it was removed for filming in this screencap?

We don't know if a wall exists (in-universe) by the third bed or not, but we do know that if there was one there, it would have to be removed for filming the scenes which featured the third bed.

Therefore, I'm making it a rule that walls or other objects that could exist in-universe that would have to be removed for filming the series have every right to be there as much as the bridge module next to the science station does. Whether or not they exist in my project depends on my preference and artistic license, I suppose.

GSchnitzer wrote:
The only thing I might do differently is to swap out that new blinky computer display you've added and replace it with the display of the antique surgical tools from "Space Seed."
That's a good idea, but I'm gonna sleep on that one for now.


GSchnitzer wrote:
In all these shots, Donny, on both the Examination Room side, and the Ward Room side, I'm feeling like it's a tiny bit dark--like we are in Sick Bay on the night shift. I might pop up the lighting a tiny bit--but I'm not really sure how this gets rendered in-game, so maybe the lighting is actually perfect. But my feeling as I sit and look at in on my monitor is that it's a little dark.
This is a very important topic. I have a tendency, in all my CG work, to keep lighting low and moody and full of shadows. When I first started making game environments 15 odd years ago, much of the user-made content being released suffered from poor, under-thought, over-bright, washed-out lighting. I offered the alternative to that and always strived to not have my work suffer from the same. Therefore, I chose to use moody, darker lighting in my game environments, and was applauded for it.

Sometimes, however, I overdo the dark moodiness, such as in the ward-room shots I posted above. For that reason, I definitely do need everyone to point it out when it may seem my work is looking too dark.


I appreciate everyone's input. I'm making a few changes as we speak, but am going to move on to Doctor McCoy's office soon. Got to keep the momentum going....
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Old July 3 2013, 12:53 AM   #356
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine

Donny wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Of course, I have to wonder where this yellow back door is supposed to led us. If I'm not mistaken you illustrated the area in a same or similar fashion in your older TOS rendering approach.
Yes, this is very similar to my earlier approach in my earlier attempt at this project with the Quake III engine. Good memory!

Robert Comsol wrote:
And now I realize I have to pester Donny with question: Why is there a wall in such close proximity to the third bed which apparently doesn't exist if we look at the various "third bed footage"?
Does the bridge module next to Spock's science station not exist because it was removed for filming in this screencap?

We don't know if a wall exists (in-universe) by the third bed or not, but we do know that if there was one there, it would have to be removed for filming the scenes which featured the third bed.

Therefore, I'm making it a rule that walls or other objects that could exist in-universe that would have to be removed for filming the series have every right to be there as much as the bridge module next to the science station does. Whether or not they exist in my project depends on my preference and artistic license, I suppose.

GSchnitzer wrote:
The only thing I might do differently is to swap out that new blinky computer display you've added and replace it with the display of the antique surgical tools from "Space Seed."
That's a good idea, but I'm gonna sleep on that one for now.


GSchnitzer wrote:
In all these shots, Donny, on both the Examination Room side, and the Ward Room side, I'm feeling like it's a tiny bit dark--like we are in Sick Bay on the night shift. I might pop up the lighting a tiny bit--but I'm not really sure how this gets rendered in-game, so maybe the lighting is actually perfect. But my feeling as I sit and look at in on my monitor is that it's a little dark.
This is a very important topic. I have a tendency, in all my CG work, to keep lighting low and moody and full of shadows. When I first started making game environments 15 odd years ago, much of the user-made content being released suffered from poor, under-thought, over-bright, washed-out lighting. I offered the alternative to that and always strived to not have my work suffer from the same. Therefore, I chose to use moody, darker lighting in my game environments, and was applauded for it.

Sometimes, however, I overdo the dark moodiness, such as in the ward-room shots I posted above. For that reason, I definitely do need everyone to point it out when it may seem my work is looking too dark.


I appreciate everyone's input. I'm making a few changes as we speak, but am going to move on to Doctor McCoy's office soon. Got to keep the momentum going....
About the moodiness: I'm a nurse, and when I talke care of patients, I like the room well lit. I might be overy sensitive to such dark moodiness in the context of a hospital treatment room. I didn't really notice it in all the other rooms until we got to Sick Bay. But I understand the artistic aesthetic.

About the missing Bridge conole: it's like this picture from "The Deadly Year"--where Kirk appears to be staring into the vacuum of space with no hull wall present.

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Old July 3 2013, 03:49 AM   #357
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine

Here's two shots showing before and after I adjusted the lighting to be a bit brighter. I now see how everything was too dark before...


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Old July 3 2013, 03:59 AM   #358
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine

Donny wrote: View Post
Here's two shots showing before and after I adjusted the lighting to be a bit brighter. I now see how everything was too dark before...


Oh my God! I'm loving it. I think it's perfect.

Ouch! Instruments never go directly on the table-top. They lie on a towel or on a tray.
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Old July 3 2013, 04:07 AM   #359
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Ouch! Instruments never go directly on the table-top. The lie on a towel or on a tray.
Ha! As you posted that I just finished setting that protoplaser, along with other instruments, on a tray.

Nothing gets past you, though!
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Old July 3 2013, 01:15 PM   #360
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Re: TOS Enterprise Interiors -- Unreal 3 Engine

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Well, the second bed doesn't have a bedside swing-arm monitor, either, in "Return to Tomorrow." They had pull it off the set to make room for Thalassa's receptacle. Hmmm: maybe this whole episode takes place in yet another Sick Bay!
Or this is a foretaste of the upcoming Season Three? First, the second bed doesn't have the swing-arm monitor and eventually the first bed will also be without it.
But whatever the case, to equip the third bed with a swing-arm monitor is entirely conjectural ("Journey to Babel", "The Immunity Syndrome") and the "Return To Tomorrow" footage suggests none had ever been there in the first place.

Donny wrote: View Post
Does the bridge module next to Spock's science station not exist because it was removed for filming in this screencap?

We don't know if a wall exists (in-universe) by the third bed or not, but we do know that if there was one there, it would have to be removed for filming the scenes which featured the third bed.

Therefore, I'm making it a rule that walls or other objects that could exist in-universe that would have to be removed for filming the series have every right to be there as much as the bridge module next to the science station does. Whether or not they exist in my project depends on my preference and artistic license, I suppose.
I'm well aware of the issue and commented accordingly when you presented the transporter room renderings.

At first glance the transporter console looked to be standing too close to the wall but a closer look at the footage like this screencap reveals that the directors were using "X-ray vision" to provide audiences with the "big picture" which they would have been unable to deliver had they left the swing walls or the consoles in place (same applies for Greg's sample from "The Deadly Years" and IMHO the VFX shots of the shuttlebay and many others).
Of course, "in-universe" we all do "know" that there are walls and consoles there because we have seen these locations from the opposite camera positions.

However, in the particular case of the sickbay back wall, most of us do "know" from the studio set plans and the footage that there had never been a wall.
Personally, I don't like the idea that we have to invoke the directors' desire for "X-ray vision" to explain these discrepancies in the actual footage, therefore I wouldn't voluntarily and without any pressing need create additional and extra "incidents". Just my 0.02 $, YMMV

Something similar like your third bed position, is the placement of the "Fifth Beds" in my latest draft for Main Deck 7. I'm not happy about that and I'm probably going to change it by reducing the width of the Computer Core extensions.

If I'm not mistaken, what we often saw in TOS was that the patient could be served from both sides of the bed. The third bed in your renderings (and the fifth or sixth in my deck plans) can only be served from one side. I'm not sure this is a practical approach.

Bob
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